TranscriptPlanning Board Informational Workshop ~ October 12, 2022

Durham planning board informational meeting on the 12th of October and we have four members present so we have a quorum and so I'll introduce myself I am John Talbot the chair of the board and um the topics tonight are uh affordable housing and some tweaks to the Rhodes

verbiage in our land planning land use ordinance and so first off welcome to everybody for coming and thank you for participating and uh just kind of go over a little bit about what we're going to do Mr tamars the talent planner will give a introduction to the

state law that pertains to affordable housing a couple of options that we're looking at and then also do the same thing with roads we'll open it up we'll have a planning board discussion about first affordable housing and then we'll go through that with public input and then we'll ship gears and go on to the road stuff so I want to keep them as two different topics so when I bounce them from roads to affordable housing to so on and so forth so uh and the term affordable housing is a misnomer so if there's a bit of rumor out there that this is this allows 12-story apartment buildings that's not the case this involves where the town the size of Durham and Georgia go through a greater detail is a much smaller impact than that so the history behind it quick and dirty and George will go through the details the state passed the law recently that goes into effect the first of July that says you you must do

certain things when it comes to housing density and he'll go into the details on that so we are the goal of the planning board is to put together an article that will address how the town wants to address that issue and uh it will go

before the town meeting there in the first Saturday of April so and then the same with the roads the roads questions came out of the last column meeting where there was an article before the town that did not pass and so this scales back some of that effort and a real goal starting with this evening is to get Town input get that information out there so that everybody when they vote in April can make a informed decision they understand what it is we're doing and it won't come as it'll come as a surprise to those who haven't paid attention for four months but hopefully uh those of you in here and that watch the movie and oh by the way the young lady in the very back is filming this so always start off I remind myself not to to watch my language and not try not to say anything stupid um so the film will be on the town website here by uh in the next few days the key is that there's no decision

going to be no vote no decision tonight this is strictly informational so I'm going to take your comments comments of the board and start putting together our thoughts and how to best write the the two articles so with that I will let Mr DeBarge start off talking about affordable housing and everybody I think has gotten a package I see lots of yellow so thank you John so as John indicated that the legislature back in April passed the law the governor signed it into law that requires every municipality in the state of Maine to make adjustments to their zoning codes to deal with the goal of it and it was called the new form is being called affordable housing law so the information that I'm presenting to you tonight came from a few sources one is the Department of Economic and Community Development has been the state the state has been assigned a responsibility to develop some rules that implement the

law so this is this little summary of what we have to do is uh it came from the Department of Economic and Community Development and then I've also got some information from Durham's comprehensive plan that makes recommendations on housing policies uh and then I've developed some just kind of graphics and you've got you see the some of the graphics that I've provided prepared and provided to kind of helped just visualize what we're talking about so we're going to walk down through that and then at the very end of looking at all the graphics and stuff I just want to look at the specific language of the law to see where these conclusions were drawn from because there is some interpretation of different language and the Department of Economic and Community development's got to be looking at it the law was relatively vague on so a lot of issues so it's hard to understand exactly what it requires and

requires so again this is an ongoing process but the reality is in order to have the uh materials ready for consideration at next year's town meeting we can't wait for the state to finalize this process and get the Warren articles and everything ready for the town meeting so I just wanted to emphasize that this will be developing over the next few months and there may be some changes but overall I think you'll see we're pretty close to having a good understanding of where we need to be so uh just to help everybody kind of visualize uh some of the dimensions of what we're talking about uh this is a slide showing some parcels in Durham um this is the town owned parcel on Swamp Road where the ball field was proposed and this is the new Ruby Lane subdivision before they cleared for the road and then this is a two acre lot approximately 300 feet wide by 300 feet deep this is a four is a lot and that

town on parcel it's somewhere between 8 and 10 acres it scales off at eight Acres the townlesses at a 10 but give you a general sense so uh here's what the current zoning allows and requires in terms of single family is required to have a minimum of two acres which is that 300 by 300 and you're allowed and

duplex by contrast has to have an extra half acre so you have to add two and a half acres to do a duplex the single family can have an accessory apartment which can either be as is an addition this graphic shows a house with a garage a detached Barn slash garage and then

you could put an apartment over that or you could put an apartment in an addition or you could put an apartment an accessory apartment into the main unit say in a daylight basement but it can only be 50 or half the floor

area of the main dwelling unit to make it accessory and there are specific requirements for that the other option is to do a duplex if you take two and a half acres those are not currently allowed to have an accessory apartment so only single family so the limit on both is two units so you could have a single family plus one accessory apartment or a duplex likes and two units now this is already farther in terms of the direction that the legislature is trying to go than a lot of towns a lot of towns really don't make it easy to do these accessory apartments and many many towns don't allow duplexes so Durham is already in partial compliance with the law so what the new law says is that you you

can keep these lot sizes are fine the two acres for the duplex and uh excuse me two for the single family 2.2 and a half acres for the duplex but you have to allow three units on a developed lot that has one dwelling unit so they have to allow you have to allow two more in addition to so and it's not clear in the laws we'll see but theoretically you could add another single pennile home as well as an accessory apartment either in an addition or over the garage but you're limited to a total of three they say that for vacant lots and so they make a distinction between the develop law and vacant lot on a vacant lot this the um the new law says You must allow two units the language is a little bit unclear whether that has to be a duplex or it could be two Standalone single-family dwellings you know over the four years that I've been working with the town we have had multiple inquiries along these

lines people wanting to put in uh three houses on one law all family members and so we've seen some of the interest in doing this so that's what the new law requires again on a developed lot that has one you have to allow two more for a total of three and on a vacant lot you have to allow at least two units so uh here's uh another important point that I mentioned in the law in the signs to the main Department of Economic and Community Development the authority and responsibility if they choose to pursue it which is always a good question and if they get funding to rules to administer and enforce this and uh in doing so they have to consult with another state department that's over land use plugging and then the rules as I understand of this citation is for something that's going to be a regulatory uh set of rules they have to get it approved by the legislature as opposed to simple administrative rules so this

may require quite a lengthy process to get go through their their fact public hearings and fact-finding and then get it through a legislative process so it could be after April that this is actually they make their final decision and then implementation part of the reason that that can work is that municipalities are not required to implement until July first of next year but again Durham has a town meeting in April theoretically the town could do a special town meeting to deal with this but we're putting it on the track to be ready for the April first time meeting one of the important things could you think that lately this didn't show that up a little bit better okay so one of the things is they have in areas um just like Durham uh again it's uh two units on a vacant lot and then in areas of designated growth areas and you may recall in the last update to the comprehensive plan we eliminated the

Southwest Bend growth district and so the parts that require up to three or four units does not apply to Durham because you no longer have a growth designated growth area so you would be again two units on a vacant lot and three units on a lot with an existing home and then they're talking uh just kind of giving details and one of the things they their interpretation is this says up to two dwelling units if attached but I'll show you the language that's questionable that they have to be attached so right now just with the law but they could make rules that clarify that it duplex which would be what exactly what Europe has now so in looking at what option to pursue should the town move in this direction I think the starting place for the community is the adopted comprehensive plan and in 2018 as I mentioned it would probably hit that like again just as I could referred through the worst slide here because of

visibility ah thank you dude yeah so I think maybe there's a bumped up or is this one District if calls for higher density housing in the plane that was eliminated the town went with straight rural zoning all across the town minimum lot size of two acres as we discussed so but it was a recognition for the goal of having more housing options for people that want to live in town like particularly children of current residents we have schools you know trying to find housing for the workforce is a real challenge all through southern Maine so the comprehensive plan adopted goals which pretty much line up with the with the new state law so you see with elimination of the Southwest Bend growth District considered allowing three unit and four unit multi-family housing in addition to duplexes in the rural district with design standards to make them compatible with typical Durham housing for example allow an accessory

department on a duplex and if you have a farmhouse style four Plex that looks like a farmhouse with four units in it that would be the type of design control to consider to protect rural character and then this second one was to explore options for tiny homes the state legislature also adopted a new law that requires towns to allow tiny homes equivalent with a single-family or an accessory apartment so the code officer already has to follow that and then finally as far as housing recommendations that apply to what we're talking about amend the land use ordinance to allow duplexes on a two acre lot unless there's an objective basis like the aquifer protection it really doesn't there's hard to justify explain why you have to have an extra half an acre for a duplex so that is from the comprehensive plan so one option for the planning board and the town to consider would be going with the comprehensive plan recommendations which

I've said are very much on the same track as the new affordable housing law so you would reduce based on the comprehensive plan recommendation two acres for a duplex two acres for a single family dwelling you would allow on that single-family existing single family homes you'd allow currently they're allowed to have one accessory unit and you could put one in an addition or one over the garage for a total of two uh two new new accessory units but there could only be accessory units half the floor area of the one of the main house but they could do a total of three on that currently developed block on a vacant lot in consistency with the town law uh excuse me the state law the town currently allows the duplex and the comprehensive plan recommends that you allow it at one accessory apartment so you would end up with a total of three units so that's a comprehensive plan recommendation and it

moves in the direction of being less restricted on housing in terms of the goals of the country as a plan the second option is just simply add the language of the state law and don't adjust lot sizes don't try to control the design whatever the state a lot requires you allow just keep it simple and and Slot that language into the ordinance and however it comes out do the least amount of work or change the ordinances as possible so that's kind of a neutral the third option because there are concerns we've heard in the public process and on other rounds of this land use planning that there are concerns that the town is growing too fast it's too dense and therefore we're presenting a third option which would be increase restrictions uh and what that would do potentially is counterbalance the extra units that the state is saying you have to allow so you can dampen some of that growth uh by requiring instead of the

current two acres for a single family excuse me you could you could up it under the law to four acres and so I'm sorry uh a single family would be two acres but a duplex would be four acres and theoretically you could also increase it for a single family up to four angels to make it the maximum restriction sir uh do these safe in consideration of properties that they may not be suitable for like enough septic field for multiple okay so on all of this there may be restrictions on the property like you say can't pass a soil test the other thing is the law specifically says that a subdivision that's approved where the developer puts on private Covenants this is not required so if the if the developer puts in covenants and people buy the laws or the restrictions one single family only this law specifically exempts that so that would be what I'm just calling more restrictive or maximum restrictions

uh so those are the three options that we've kind of crystallized however two things number one remember it's subject to the process and could change but there's a fourth option which would be to take one of these and start adjusting it so for example you might put add the design design restrictions on for this one or on to the stake so you these are three options and it could be a fourth which is to modify one of these so here's the law itself just to show you what it says okay so I've highlighted uh the relevant ones so the first part of it is part one of the smooth statute who says a munically shall allow with up to structures with up to two dwelling units per lot if that lot does not contained existing dwell unit so that's where we get that vacant you have to allow at least two units down below the municipality shall allow on a lot with one existing dwelling unit the addition of up to two dwelling units

one additional dwelling unit within or attached to an existing structure or one additional detached dwelling unit or one of each and all the planners and lawyers across the state are like how do you you know what is that exactly does that mean and then thirdly on this same slide municipality may have may allow more it's not saying this is the limit it's saying you could allow more and then again I mentioned the rules that are being developed by the Department of Economic and Community Development and the implementation deadline which is next July and if the town doesn't do something it goes into effect automatically what the law and state law says and then on Accessory dwelling units again they're trying to make all towns do what Durham currently does in terms of requirements for an allowances for accessory apartments and pretty much Durham is already in compliance fully with the accessory Apartments now there

is one important fact in this park though and that is it says you can't apply density calculations to accessory Apartments so back to one of those earlier slides you can't require if you only require two acres for a for a single family you can't require four acres if they add in the accessory Department accessory departments are specifically Exempted from any types of dimensional requirements like you have to have a wider lot you have to have bigger lot accessory apartments are accessory yeah and so then there's some language in here about the you know connecting them and you can't require more parking which is not initially Durham anyway and again they're going to be doing rules and this has got to be an effect by next July or it goes into effect automatically so that's pretty much what I have given the planning board and I welcome your questions first and whatever thoughts you might have audience questions have

been we're just gonna okay and discuss and hear a little bit but there will be an opportunity to you all right turn to the rights does the planning board have any questions comments for George in general before we take public comments I think one of the big things that we have to look at uh whenever we bring forth any ordinances within the town making sure that they comply with the comprehensive plan and sometimes people will challenge us and say that they don't agree and one is the

language is something to interpretation but I think when we we do a process like this we stick with Comprehensive plan and meet the comprehensive plan guidelines it's really not subject to interpretation by bringing an audience through that is different than the comprehensive

to me the I think one of the big differences is talking specifically about detached or attached attack dwellings um and I know like the option one looks specifically at adding only attached accessory apartments and I think just moving

whether we're including attached or detached joinings okay um to kind of follow up with Tyler said I I still in my mind a little bit confused that does it only require accessory apartments or could you if you had a single family home could you put in another single family home does it have to be an accessory apartment I guess is what I'm asking or could it be a tiny house could it be you know another house that fits within all the dimensions and all that other companies well based on what the town attorney has has told the our code officer with the new law on tiny homes a tiny home has to be allowed as either an accessory apartment or for accessory unit or a standalone single family so that is already settled the question becomes whether or not you could put because some of the slides show two single-family homes on the same lot that's something that you could specify and begin that may or may not be

affected by what the state decides but just based on their slides that I showed they're moving in the direction of saying duplexes as opposed to two Standalone single families and I think they're probably looking at the same thing for that existing single family adding more accessory units that's what your graphics show but until they write the rules which people could be giving them input in their public process to say oh no no you should allow multiple single family homes foreign future so I got to clarify my question at least in my mind is a is not required that you allow a standalone single-family house it is required to do it an accessory unit well it hasn't really clearly

stated whether it can be Standalone or not it's just that you must allow units okay if in the case of I think it was the single family and we'll go back to that language which is why it's confusing so we look right here this this language right here municipality show allowed on a lot with one existing dwelling unit the addition of up to two dwelling units doesn't specify whether it's single family or accessory one additional unit within or attached to the existing structure or one additional detached dwelling unit so theoretically that could be a single-family home so that's a that's a requirement or one of these it'll it says you have to allow you have to talk to a number of units that's the main thing that language is focusing on because our language units the language in The Proposal the optional is all accessory units which are I think the comprehend our comprehensive plan would support that now whether the becd will

say oh no no you've got to allow two single family under the state law that could be a possible outcome then we won't know until they drop adopt their rules and that's what I think we just need to be flexible because if it comes back with a definition of you put two 1200 foot houses on there and maybe that's what the town wants is the ability to put two lots two single-family houses on on that and again we have had actually like someone I can remember I can't remember the road but they were basically wanted to build a home for their mom right next to their house and she wanted a full home she didn't just want an accessory Department attached to the house and so they came in and said can we do this and we said no you can't because it limits it to 50 and it has to be either attached or in uh over a garage or a barn with the courage that's right because one of my concerns is making sure that whatever we do doesn't

doesn't get defeated down the road that somebody doesn't come in and wants to do exactly that and says you're not following the state law so that's something we need to keep working on I guess any other company you might not know that until later on too right until after we go so we're going to have to have to be flexible yeah now the track that it seems to be on right now the eecd is on the same track of limiting it to accessory units but we won't know until they make their final decision so you may end up having to go forward on an at the April town meeting based on the best available information and then if the state changes the rules or adopts rules that are contradictory you may have to make amendments to it later on so I think what you guys were just talking about before is the difference between option one and option two right the comp plan is option one yeah with the accessories department and then option two

is more single families obviously yeah the alliance of either so that's option two minimum compliance to on this uh make the block you could either do two single families standalones or you could do a duplex just like you currently allow if the state law interpretation comes out of that way but like I said the track that they seem to be on is to say if attached dec-d has said if attached so that those would not be attached and you could say no when it comes to that time period if the law says my oath says I will hold SAFE Federal and local laws state law if that says exactly the wording that's up there then I will about I can't not allow it period whether you make an ordinance that says that I can or not like with tiny homes

because we're we're these tracks take us down Apartments but that stayed live at this point which may or may not be clarified down the road says a dwelling unit which could be a tiny house it could be two 1200 square foot houses to to is almost eight you know fit and all those other kinds of things so that's that is you know a challenge I think to us and because

sure as I'm sitting here somebody's going to say I want to you know come on and to Standalone single family houses and uh yeah and I'll go back to what the decd has already put out two units if attached so this is a kind of a flow chart that they've set out that that's the direction they're looking so uh but as I pointed out here the law

doesn't say that it says must allow structures with two dwelling units so two single family is structures plural in two units well then it specifically goes into detail about two in the law part right but it doesn't say one or well again it just says it can either be in it attached to it detached or any combination right but it talks about the attachment s whereas this is just completely yeah like so so as we're going forward and then the other thing I wasn't here when the comp plan was developed in another life where on a comp plan committee and I will say that the town's comp plan I think was superbly done I mean it is an excellent kind of plan and should help guide not only this decision but his you know it's just a political statement there but in others as we're going forward so with any other comments from the planning board members if not that's right I'm sorry um I don't think I've seen this anywhere

but they I know they've said they can't um change acreage based on Accessory dwelling units but I assume we can still impose square footage requirements on the accessories can't require like you can require if they were going to do a duplex you could require four acres two acres for each unit you can't require two acres for the first unit and four acres for the second unit oh sorry you know I mean yes I just

wanted to clarify that part of it but they also say you can make limitations on the size of them and it's key to understand we started talking about changing the acreage to forward versus but that's another ordinance change so has anyone at the state level said wow what's this going to do to our school system

Jade I mean I I couldn't tell you that I would I would hope that some smart people sat down and said uh uh you know we need we need to worry a conservative I think it comes from it is and I think it's a good idea and I'll say that is but it's maybe lots of details to be done there is a true shortage of housing in May in Maine as it is for many parts of the country and I think they tried to fix a problem perhaps didn't realize the law of unintended consequences but I can't answer unless somebody else can but I can't ask that I could but I do need to say we don't have a lot of choice of this because one July if we don't have a law it reverts to the state law basically what's up there is option two so

but the biggest confusion I have so far is we we keep discussing about how we don't know yet and being a prior law guy it seems to me that it's been enacted it's been approved by the governor it's here written and plain and I printed it up before I got here I'm confused on where we're getting the idea that something might change or something might not be addressed or something might come up later when it's already in the main revised Statute 4364a simply tells me that a municipality shallow a lot of structures without the two zoning units well it's already written in the model yeah but with that law same law says rules the Department of Economic and community development May adopt rules to administer and enforce this section they shall consult with d-e-acf uh pursuant and then those have to go through the legislature so that could be narrowed down through the rule-making process that's what we're saying okay so they

could clarify who can only do a duplex that would be their interpretation the Attorney General would look at it and say can you interpret it that way and if the legislature approves the rules then that's going to have the effective law okay and uh thank you for that yeah are we still regardless of all this we still have to maintain prior setbacks on each lot two acres two and a half acres same setbacks no matter what yeah so when you start getting into bigger single family homes yeah that fear May disseminate it may not it may not even affect you may not even able to fit a second single family home way over here because you're you're gonna get that so it would have to fit so maybe it won't even happen sorry so the law that's a really good question so the law doesn't trump our setbacks no all of those things none other doesn't have any of the other stuff this is specific okay so it's like back to

your question if you can't fit then can't fit the first thing I look for is a septic design right they take it Plummer who is the town's code enforcement so I got a relatively new but very good just on that issue of setbacks I mean the reality is between two acre lots you know fitting another home somewhere on that lot that's a lot of land yeah uh in a in a town that has like half acre lots that may be much more of an issue of fitting than it is here especially if you've got to put in septic systems and it becomes a real problem but with two acre lots you shouldn't think that that's going to be a big limiting factor setbacks this state minimum lot size for septic design is 20 000 square feet

right based on the setbacks alone and then dwelling unit versus accessory apartment is how I'm reading the law there's only two things that we're talking about a dwelling unit being any kind of like a duplex young side one side is a dwelling unit and then an accessory apartment is something above the garage but it is a dwelling unit as well do you have as dwelling units you have a single family home yeah every dwelling unit okay an accessory apartment is a dwelling unit a duplex is two dwelling units so dwelling unit is just the habitation the attached detached duplex those are all forms of dwellings yeah okay just is there a definition of dwelling unit it is not in here and I just did a quick look at the statute uh and and what I thought there's there's accessory dwelling unit and dwelling unit and the statute uses dwelling unit so I guess I'm concerned that someone somewhere thinks that that this new law

limits uh the limits the additional units as as accessory dwelling in it because to me it's that's an absurd reading of what's written um has definitions of these things too right but we're gonna we're gonna have to follow this right and so I guess my question is um how confident are you that um the decd is going to implement rules

I'm pretty confident about writing to learn more because the law is so subject to interpretation I think the challenge in my mind the challenge is this this standalone a detached home was to me a very strong it could be a very strong possibility it may be a tiny home if or it may be another thousand square foot home or whatever that that is troublesome to me as we're going forward but I know we also have a timeline we're working again so but I think that's that's mine and my struggle with this is a municipality shall allow on a lot with one existing boiling unit um the addition of up to two dwelling units right and so to me it's a single family home up to three and there's one and that's why dec-d is doing rule making to try to clarify for every Community is is plagued by these same uncertainties there are quite a few organizations and individuals that are working to get more

specifics about this that they don't like this um is anyone thinking about timing of when a what in what order the structures come so I have a vacant lot that has a garage on it so no dwelling unit it's just a garage it's a vacant lot can I do my accessory dwelling unit first and then put my duplex on knowing that at the end result I will have an accessory dwelling unit that's only 50 to square footage of the duplex that I'm building on that block I'm going to look to the code enforcement guide but it doesn't matter in what order I do it as long as the end game is still within the state law I would think that if you did if you had it go garage there are lots of parcels around here just a garage you put a dwelling unit above this on how you have an accessory unit to nothing yeah and then you go to build a duplex you're gonna have to you can do that if you go you know but if you try to do just as long as what follows these the

car our codes then you would be allowed to do that is that and I don't understand unless you organize ordinance specifies sequencing rules not on my channel what I'm doing is that Ellen if that were the case if you had a garage and somebody put an apartment in there I've seen that and then somebody else comes on so now I'm going to build my house next to that house as always they met all the other rules the end result the end result yeah

and I would probably put that in that would be a part of the building permit conditions or it would be part of the building work that the end result would be this would be an accessory to a primary that you're going to build in the future and something like you get a commitment to whatever yeah and does it have to be now I'm going back to the definitions again what if that garage was converted to be strictly a home no garage just a dwelling unit framed in the two garage doors put a door out front and made it just a simple home put a bathroom and a kitchen in it because it's already a standing structure so not an accessory it's actually just a dwelling unit the size of that dwelling unit is approximately 700 square feet so now you build your duplex

at 14 or 1500 square feet per unit and you can build a duplex the size of like a 2700 square foot duplex it's going to depend on which of those options the town decides to move in okay because option three you need four acres right so that was limited and then option one

would say you can have you would get three units on that wall because you have one there now right but if option one the comprehensive plan goes to vote instead of the other two then there would be size limits that you'd be constrained by the size of the size of the units because accessory units you under the under option one which is the comprehensive plan you allowed one full-size single family and two accessory dwelling units which can only be 50 of the floor area of that single family teacher together it would have to be each okay yeah so if you go together and now and I have this discussion today yeah so if you're saying that the accessory unit can be half the floor area of the duplex that's a third unit well what size but so it would have and we have to specify in the language that wouldn't it wouldn't really follow what the intent is to say it's going to be smooth so that doesn't make sense so you'd have

to have half of that one half of one for apple one something to build a sound if you took the garage made it 700 square feet square feet in order for that to qualify correct yeah yeah and my last question I'll shut up uh the uh the comprehensive plan is

strict like something that we should be fought like is it why have a comprehensive plan if we're not going to follow it okay yeah let me clarify how strict is the company yeah so what you have to recognize is a comprehensive plan is a long-range plan for the town typically they cover 10 years so 2028 would be the next time that the town would update it because conditions could change and policies could need to be changed actually so what that does is it looks at everything from transportation to uh environment to housing to Economic Development and it lists a whole bunch of goals and sometimes those roles can contradict each other but Jane was raising the issue of the impact on public service at schools so if you do more affordable housing you end up potentially with more impact on the schools so it doesn't say You must do this you must do this it says consider that was a language that was in there consider this after you

weighed the other so but under main Law whatever land use ordinances you adopt must be consistent with your comprehensive plan so you couldn't say okay we're going to keep the whole town Rural and then propose a a very high

density thousand unit project in contradiction of the comprehensive plan if if and this has happened in other towns like Scarborough where they've gone forward with one of these people like uh was it uh Scarborough Downs only in the opposite direction the comprehensive plan said do this and then somebody tried to do it in

the Town Council because of political pressure shot it down and went to court this is in the early 2000s and the main Supreme Court said if it's in your comprehensive plan you can't go in the opposite direction fine it takes a lawsuit and a court process to determine that sure so you should take it seriously but you're not locked into it I understand thank you a couple questions so I know in the past

we have not become more restrictive than the state in a lot of cases and I'm just looking at this making sure that we're going to probably follow the level line of what the what the state does um only because we didn't want conflict between us and the state you know we try to do that in the past with the planning void

um so I'm just wondering what the thought process is on on not being more restrictive or if we're more restrictive what kind of pushback might we get with what Jamie was talking about about lots and driveways my personal opinion is is I I think if you go and this the state is trying to do something here they're not trying to restrict something they're trying to open something up so if you try to restrict from what they're going to do you're going to you may run into the the state whether it be a judge or a you know some bureaucrat somewhere saying that was not the end you know you're not following the law and you can't you must do that so the question of it can be a second single family home if we say it can't and somebody else does that's that's a personal issue I'm trying to come to grips with it the state been in this law saying you can require area per unit so theoretically

for three full-size units you could require six acres where you now only requires two that seems to be going in the opposite direction of what the state was intending but they put that into the law so you can do it so back to option three where you have a lot and be able to settle on option for a lock a lot you might have to Grandfather at that point some folks property do you know the way the law gets implemented right and then go from there yeah and what is ambiguous is the long one in my involved unintended consequences because you know you're you're somebody's trying to do something on six acres that they could have done on Two And I had just used up four more Acres of that whatever so but you also I know in our ordinances at one time when folks put a second dwelling unit on their property reality the size of the property access to the second dwelling unit like a bath lot required roadway

um guy who said to her that second loaned parking and then an actual agreement whether it was family or not between the parties that was in place of plowing and maintenance of that roadway um you know even though it was family I think we still required it at the time we may have changed it since still doing we still do we're going to be talking about that on the road issue yeah because that I mean family does split apart eventually for folks yeah and and the houses get sold and that's the second issue is tax base so what what do we tax this I mean

this is probably more of a question of the select board uh but uh you know how are we going to handle this from a cap stand point back to James question about schools um you know is it justice we have footage or is it more about are you sharing a septic system it's from a separate one I mean it almost can become a separate house product system and everything altogether it doesn't world and so you then end up with a lot split possibly okay I don't think maybe somebody else can I'm doing all the Talking I don't think the intent of this is to split locks I mean you could you did very well but this is in my my mind at least more of a rental you know where you are writing the apartment upstairs the basement downstairs the garage tiny house big house half a duplex it is

um you know I suppose you know that to me that becomes a rental and then I guess Donna Hayes could say well you've increased the value of your property uh and therefore I can you know you're going to pay it's going to be in 150 000 as a single family house you have an apartment so it's two hundred thousand dollars and you know I don't know the answer to that one Joe I mean that's but that's I I'm not an accessory either but basically what they look at is a couple of things number one how much money have you put into the improvements because that's taxable value um and then secondly how have comparable properties how much have they sold for so if it was a single family and all the homes in Durham that have accessory Apartments sell for 50 more than just the basic single family because of their income then she'll base it on that comparison plus how much uh value is there it would be less than a lot split

because there's an automatic amount attached to a bus with a period before anything is improved so that wouldn't necessarily come into play so it might be based on value that's a great question for Donna yeah unless we actually mandate that it becomes like a split regardless you've got you can't you can't mandate valuation that's a state law George um back to Joe's question does the D is it yep

restrictive on state legislature has roped into towns on how restrictive you can be and these are the rules so that's what they're doing trying to clarify what those rules say ing planning board members that guy that the publication that they just put out like scaled it down you don't need to talk about big affordable housing projects because you don't do them so I limited it to this part and so if you look at there you'll see what they're saying is it the limitations that we really talk about in this context of Durham would be the lot size right

what the decd says it when they make their rules yeah they may say exactly the same difference when they say accessory units right so but we we can't go if they say accessory units we can more than they allowed right that's what they said right in the law you can allow more units and more beer units than they require so if the state said you must allow two uh to a duplex

you could you must allow a duplex you can still allow two individual individual single families by your lawn as long as you're not being more restricted than they the name for it so they're not they're saying you can always go be more and more allowance than the state is they love that that's I'm still struggling with that I mean I because I I still think it's in my mind it still says you can have a single family home two two single family on three single family if it all fits in the parameters I I that's how I was interpreting and right now that's the way it is I think these fears will be tampered by setbacks your septic plan your Leach Fields your distance from the well your distance off of your other structure you physically can't put two single family homes on a two acre lot without encroaching on your setbacks I've tried you just you unless you put them right on top of each other and then

your your eyes will just connect them and make it a duplex at that point a butter wills and septic cement to play as well of course yeah so you so these fears of like oh my goodness I might see three single family homes on a two acre lot physically by code enforcement by law other laws that are already protecting that fear so if most of your

additional column whatever I don't know what we're calling them anymore accessory units will always be smaller and more containing simply because you've got setbacks and and septic uh of course that assumes that the law is only two acres correct you could have four acres six acres ten acres correct near the road that's why they put all the houses okay that's what they may be able to do it okay

when we eat an apartment on some sort or a tiny house are you using the same septic or are you putting a second septic do you want to address that it just septics are designed for a number of bedrooms right so if you can you might

be able to expand the existing septic once you go over five bedrooms you need another set of tank as well as a larger weeds field so you should there's a possibility to expand the existing septic or you could do it completely different if you have the space in the soil system

addresses that is sure what do you have to do on septic and basically uh they they and this is the same for like adding an accessory Department uh you either have to have someone certified that your septic system is large enough for that extra three unit to be added or you have to design a system that if it that if it fails you can expand it it's like those types of rules I think they put that into the small as well now um I just happen to know a couple people that own tiny homes and I was just wondering if you started out say you have two acres and you put a tiny home on it and then later decide to sell the land does that

piece of land now consider that tiny home like is that as if that's a single family dwelling and I mean I'm talking about the size of other homes that you'll be able to put there like hopefully you could still put a full-size family home and then all of a sudden the tiny home would become an accessory home you know I'm just thinking of like all these like it has to be half the size and all that it kind of starts out as a single family home because it's the only one there

looking at the cone guy but and please join in if I'm Administration it would seem like if you had four or acres and you had a tiny home on it then you split it and the tiny home was on two acres I would think the rules would apply to that new parcel whatever rules we come up with the rules would have thought and so the other one that is now if it's if it's the right size it could that could now get an accessory apartment or whatever yeah so again it goes I think it goes back to the total when it's all set and done you know so yeah that's the code in front of these guys got to sit there and say you know that's a 700 square foot tiny home or garage complex and those two duplexes are only 1100 square foot each they got to be bigger or you can't do it yeah so I would definitions might change that's the only thing I was thinking it might get complicated I would think if somebody was going to put a tiny home on

a two acre lot they would need to really be thoughtful for sale purposes right afterwards where they situate that right so that you would have the wrong options for the other person yeah it increase the value of their home for resale certainly yeah I'm guessing yeah but I mean it's just like a weird complication that could happen because people like those types yeah that's why he gets paid all the big bucks

about the Covenant for subdivisions because you yeah this law makes it makes a specific exemption that says this does not preempt private governments of subdivisions so that uh this law so you've got subdivisions across Durham that have private covenants that say one single family this new law go into effect doesn't make those private covenants null and void to say now you can put two those private covenants rule that's written into the law or our subdivisions are all that are they all um like that do you know I don't you know some of them a subdivision can be someone just selling off two lots usually that's not if there's a private road the homeowners maintain it that's usually got covenants okay that what I'll go and check when I get back because I was the public road but we have a sudden division ordinances at Hunter Hill and I have to check those restricted or not I'm not sure we do and

that's the way it is on you know where I am at Millbrook and Cedar Pond Road there are covenants in the Deeds right and building envelopes and those were all still apply yeah those are protected by the law yeah or another the options or can we turn that on universe

thank you I think we're not there yet or I'm not there yet I mean I think when this this opens the the process if you will so it leads to I guess a question I can address later which is we have this informational meeting tonight the board will spend uh the next couple of months putting together a draft particle that will you know build on this and and your input and then we draft and draft an article well we think it should be it goes to the selectman who you know and

we're under discussion probably monthly about until when we're sitting there so we'll get feedback from them as well so uh we're just trying to get a feel a little bit of a feel for the town is and also some of the questions you asked we probably had not had thought it thought of yet so I think the the short answer is I'm putting that baby to a future meeting yeah well but also John mentioned we've talked about doing a survey yeah thank you we're also going to do a a survey that will get out there to a bunch of folks and uh uh so you know please please pass the word on all of this but if you've got a preference after this I know you a lot of you are also thinking about it for the first time but if short of you know don't do anything um we just let the state law take effect but we're we're doing this to get your feedback so that basically when we get to the town meeting we may not have a consensus what we

present may lose that at least people will have the opportunity to to address this and and go forth and there are a lot of questions you know we're going to talk about Road Stacks but how do you treat access to these and that that's a big deal and you know so and John just survey is going to be online right yes and just to keep it simple to understand what I keep saying is look you're really going to make it less restrictive to expand housing opportunities or are you going to make it more restrictive to limit growth and development or are you going to be neutral those are the three basic policies individuals people just do the state what the state says it no more no less the least restrictive is following our comp plan make the duplex down to two acres

um again whatever it was two acres two acres for a single family and two and a half acres and that's across the town now that's everywhere yeah so does the town use what they call Builders Acres or real Acres I mean a 200 by 200 is not a real acre yeah yeah okay and technically yeah they call like a true Acres 43 560. a builder's

acre is 40 000. in the same Durham has 90 000 square feet for a single fish which is a little bit oh it's like 8.4 or something like that I can't remember so it's just a little bit more so it's kind of Builders Acres but it's not 80 000 it's 90 000. and then uh the duplex is 120 000. that's how right you round it up okay will there still be exemptions I know when I and and the the

uh development I'm in uh the Builder got exemptions to make some of the Lots smaller if he put if you put Reserve Land that's a cluster and you probably got 40 000 square foot Lots or 45 000 square feet they're slightly smaller than the two acres yeah but they put separately basically you took Wetland that he couldn't build on a side and preserve it yeah so either one of the two things would be number one look at the Covenants because it may just say you can only put a single family but also they may be grandfathered quote-unquote in terms of the size because there were like uh when the town eliminated the Southwest Bend growth District that allowed money for laws along the dangerous road up near royalsboro road so those are now grandfathered from the two acre requirement so those running for Lots he would approve as a single family room come up with something that we decided we're going to vote on and it fails and

we automatically end up with what the state has yeah yes is that correct so we should be doing all of this and the town votes it down and then yep then you go with the neutral just just do what the state says the reasons we're trying to actually have the say of what we want to do rather than just go in and get whacked down at the uh on a meeting and if people want to vote against it then just recognize that it defers to if Alan said he's got to follow the state law so

anything else on the so please give us your feedback and it can be on the survey it can be on an email to the town planner uh we will take into consideration what we want to do and we'll be talking to the selectman to get their input as well so I'm an advocate for the going with the comprehensive plan option but how much getting back to her comment about the town vote how much weight does that really have in the town of vote I mean we all voted on the comp plan and that's pretty heavy heavily weighed in this decision um if it gets voted down the town boat do we have to um revise the comp plan no no no we'd have

changed the comp plan I was just I mean the comp plan is is what it is now I think we're we do allow it with an accessory unit now uh we do a lot of duplexes with a two and a half acre lot so as George said in the beginning we're part way part way there with me the the goals of the the state so so

my opinion would just be to don't jump in mud if you don't want to get dirty if you have a state law that's already been passed down in a comprehensive plan that is already looking to go and do these things I don't think it even needs to be brought to a boat because then you run into the situation of someone who's not paying attention for four to six months with an idea what we're even talking about in this room which happens a lot oh my God yep you're all going to sit together and vote together right right things happen all the time where people just it's a free country not to be involved in politics if they want to but I my recommendation was is to not money the waters and and either take what the state is saying or go down to the uh the comprehensive plan the only thing I don't like about the comprehensive plan is if you lower that duplex to two acres you're getting Tighter and Tighter on your accessory dwelling unit

which the state says that you're allowed to use success or going units so if you may get tighter for me to do these successful building is that I'm allowed to do now I'm getting into setbacks and I'm getting into septic plans where now I can't buy by the state law because the comprehensive plan has limited me to two acres [Music] it's saying that the least amount you can have is two acres you can have three acres or four acres right and do what you want to do you just can't so someone has their lots too small to do the fold that one that one lot is limited which is too small yeah but there were other lots that are they're much bigger okay and the hybrid version could be that you believe it and don't use to and go and stay at two and a half instead of two all the comp plan it except for

want to sound like I'm advocating one way or the other because I'm really not I mean it says to allow those standard two acre lot unless there's an objective basis and you know we've heard multiple times you know when we were for the election and everything you know the the town growth is a major issue and to me um you know we should be considering that issue that has been raised by many many people I think that's an objective basis to not follow up the comp plan which would then uh you know prevent the Scarborough incident uh from happening to to us I think so

great idea and I had a thinking about that now my question would be and you probably don't have an answer to this um but what type of win are you going to give to the survey it's just input I think it's just well is it like this sorry for the comp plan we I was on that committee and we used the surveys that we got that was held highly like the weight was great it's a good surveys and it depends on what the results are so for example in the comprehensive plan you had 25 percent of the people in town that wanted to have growth area restrictions and make sure get 75 of all future housing in Durham to help in rate in this area and then you had 25 of the respondents that said oh let's just get rid of all of the town's zoning requirements and go with what the state minimums are so State minimum is half an acre 20 000 square foot minimum lot size law so just let get rid of all the Durham controls

and just go with the state minimums that that got about less than 20 percent Focus all the growth in one small area that got less than 20 percent sixty percent fifty five percent was liberal with two acre lots so the survey will kind of get the pulse to say which direction the the majority of people leaned they won't give you precise results but that's how a planning board uses the information if everybody's all over the place that's a result too that it's hard to say oh yeah well that's a result so we know people are all over the place how's your question going to read

that does is a good question funny we're putting that one down the road we're gonna take everything we heard here in the survey and other results the process going forward is we will try we'll take all that into consideration take anything you provide after the fact we have to have the planning board have to have a public hearing before it goes to the town meeting so the draft article will have another public hearing that would be a more formal not information this is what it is probably an opportunity come in and say you didn't pay any attention to what we said or whatever it may be and uh

we'll go from there okay does that make sense of that so first Saturday of April is the the Tom meeting probably the end of February we have to have a final draft article that can get published and all those other kinds of things so look forward to like January late January first part of February we'll have another we'll have formal public hearing a Target what will happen is you folks over the next you know between now and mid-December a little kind of formulate which of these three options to head in and then they'll be in the select board or communicate with the spike board and say look this is what we think and then get the endorsement for the select board to move forward with option one option two or option three then we'll draft the language I've already drafted like the three in the Amendments which might have to be tweaked but basically then then we go and have a public hearing on that

so this isn't the the final thing and I am if anybody else has I'm still going to punt it down the road about what it's but we wanted to start as I said to begin we're not ready to make a decision on that one so fair enough I can pump with the best all right the next topic is Rose which ties into this one a little bit better or not George will go through the thing there was a uh article before the town at the last town meeting that uh got blown out of the water uh and changed and so we sat down and said okay what are the things that are probably not they're not going to be controversial based on what the town said at that meeting what can we change and so he's going to go through uh some of the changes on their the same process we're going to get your input tonight do all that other stuff for after an article and take it before the the town meeting so this is a small piece of I guess the overall roads question and we

still and we're doing whatever we end up doing with the affordable housing fees we have to figure out the roads part of that as well so to start with the basic rules okay first is that under Section 5.7 of the land use ordinance backlots can be established on a 50-foot right-of-way driveway serving a single Backlot must be 20 feet in width which is really a private road and it must be the street construction standards except for shoulders of Paving those can be approved by the code officer and if there's two or more backlots then they have to do an engineered Road plan which is most towns call them private ways that meet all of the requirements for private Street except for Paving and the Public Works direct excuse me it should be the road commissioner and CEO approve that but the maintenance agreement has to go at the plumbing board and most towns as I say treat those as private ways for roads there's a provision for roads

that's pretty much what it's titled and it really it only deals with the maintenance agreement for the planning board to improve doesn't deal with any engineered standards and no construction standards so it just it's kind of a

hodgepodge and it causes confusion for the road commissioner for the code officer and the planning board is to rule approves what and what are the standards that we should be applying so we've tried to clean this up now at two-time meetings and so the going

trying to simplify it we would basically go back to where it was last April on backlots leaving the 50-foot right-of-way limited to one single back quad and if it is one you could have 16 feet instead of 20. uh approved by the fire chief as well as the code officer so before the code officer issues a building permit fire chief inspects the road and make sure that he can get his equipment back there without damaging them uh and then take out the stuff for the multiple lots and put them over into 5.23 and then put pretty much the

engineered plan and the planning board if it's just going to be reviewing the maintenance agreement really wants less spring they said look just let the staff do it let them review the plan but in review the maintenance agreement let the rules be very specific and leave it that way so at the last town meeting as John said the two concerns were people were divided over whether these non-subdivision roads should be paved or raffled I remember we had a public hearing and we heard both but it seemed the majority over the Eureka Center uh said that let them be gravel for family compound type development when he got to town meeting that was a controversial issue and then it was also confused oops sorry confusion over whether the language change is proposed at that time would say that these roads can be accepted by the town so the select board to ask and we put into this a clear statement that you can't get a road accepted and

accepted account meeting so that's kind of what we're proposing to try to get this through the next town meeting and fix this mess that's in the current land use ordinance planning board I do have a question George where are we putting that last statement to be added it's going to be in this language right here okay right now there's there's already a statement in there that says the plan must have a statement on it saying the town will not be acceptable uh responsible for the acceptance we're going to add a statement to say acceptance of any road must go to town meeting

other than I think we need to figure out how if we whatever we do with affordable housing is it going to require a maintenance agreement uh for that if we get into separate units separate building structures whatever it may be so uh although I guess if it's one owner that may be less of a bit less of an issue than that but those will have to be a 9-1-1 stream if it's more than one

house on the driveway so it'll have to get that'll have to be a road for 9-1-1 standards if there's two houses on one driveway 89 23 and 923. you didn't have to have a separate Road age and numbers so this new law is affecting this proposal because last spring what we proposed was that that single backlaw could only have a single family dwelling on it right we 've taken out that language because they could theoretically have the same two units that new law has affected this so now you have to have a driveway big enough to handle those

yeah I'm chewing yeah 16 from 26. well the idea was I mean a 24 road to serve one house one family right that is a massive investment a 16 foot isn't cheap but then why do you make it the width makes it substantially more expensive and that you're for a single home they have to have a world that's a question so I think back to what you were saying John 16 would only be one yes and then if this goes

to go to a 20-foot road to have your mother-in-law living there or yeah duplex duplex Maybe yeah probably the mother-in-laws um it is limited to 50 so you're not going to have a family with five kids each with a car it's potentially it's a theoretical you could have two cars and but my eye would lead to I will actually not on this one I would lean towards if they want to have two whatever the heck we're calling I'm dwelling units living units accessory Apartments okay then they've got a they have a wife yeah you can specify that yeah my feelings in the family home uh 24 anything more why would it need to be 20. why does it need to be 20 for the other one I I think you're talking about getting more there's a fire there's more people that have to get back there so 16 foot Road is is a pretty wide row even for a fire truck so I'd be interested in hearing what the fire chief says absolutely and

when Chief and I talked about this last night he he and and the road condition are going to weigh in on these comments as well isn't it they have to be able to pass simultaneously in the garage I don't know that's what I've heard in the past and the ambulance has to leave in the fire department's still going in they will we'll leave that discussion as as when I was in another life as a developer I mean he ran into the cul-de-sacs couldn't have a cul-de-sac and all that other stuff but one astute Town planner told me that fire trucks have a reverse and they can actually back up so and sometimes make pull-offs for every so many hundred feet there's a pull off it's not just the fire trucks it could be an oil delivery truck and the homeowners coming out somebody's going back unless you have a little but even 16 feet I mean eight foot you know the standard Road Lane is 10 to 12 feet yeah so you get eight feet so two normal

passenger vehicles can pass on a 16 foot wide driveway so everyone has China trucks here so I mean I would say that if if the chief comes back and says it has to be 20 I would probably you know vote in his favor he's already in weighed in on this and if he gets to approve it to make sure it's passable if he was good with the 600 plus but that was a single did we talked about no and then we need to update yep and I

said on this stuff this morning so because I'm thinking if it's a family compound that's that's a low traffic area unless there's an emergency so it would be really his way in is what you want yeah I mean if he's comfortable whatever he's going to you know it's that's the issue is safety I think and I'm all for you know not spending extra money if you know forcing somebody to spend extra money um but I think it how long can you say it's a family compound Wednesday

question uh these multiple units that are on the same lot there's no way can you sell off one of those units to someone else without selling the law yes you can't sell off a you could sell a duplex rules about you know other stuff how to make a good combo yeah so so this access to this back

clock could have if we move forward with all this could have three units on it either bacon you could only put two on it under the Staples as a plan recommendation but as John was looting you could limit the driveway for 16 feet to a single family dwelling anything more than that you could make that 20 feet right because as it's drafted now I mean you were talking about what it should be 20 but as instructed now this new new state law is still it's still one love so yeah but the new state law would allow you to increase the width of the driveway from the additional units they don't say anything about that they just take the law area can be required to be much reserved you could potentially have on two things a lot and a Backlot or something like that put a lot in the backlog you could have six living units on those no I don't think so I've got lots and how many

got a single family house on let's just say you have 10 acres and so a single family house is sitting on that now so he splits it into two five acre lots so that single family on one is allowed two accessory units you can put a single family on the other lot and he's allowed

you have to have enough if they have enough yes all those other things back lot and I think the rules are different Mr Holden forcer help me out not if this law goes through if it's a lot a lot right there's a lot it's a lot this law would apply to it yeah new state law they don't have that say it it's just a lot it's the backlog comes in when it correct me Vermont please uh the back the term Backlot comes down to the municipality that's correct so the state law doesn't say anything it's not but if you create those backwards under the law the rules apply to the backlog as much as any other law right oh three units no I think you know the question is how many people you know were spending a lot a lot of time we should we need to do that but how many people are going to put six be surprised

but that takes a lot of forethought right I mean I'm glad that you brought the question about setbacks because that makes me feel better and how many people will build a house with an expanded septic system right um who does that I'm right in the middle of trying to work with this gentleman for me uh I had a three acre lot here in Durham currently trying to do this new law and put a duplex in and with that duplex I'm already really close to my setbacks like really close with a two-car garage and two units on either side of those two-car garage I'm at 95 feet in my duplex on a two acre lot of 300 feet you can do the math you got you know I'm working you're already close to it really close to it and so when you start having that accessory dwelling unit exactly what I'm trying to work with is I'm starting to run out of room with my septic plan my septum design and I have three acres and I'm already running out of room

the successor unit could go behind now the description I just don't want to take down the garage it's already there more people are designing with a larger septic system would that initially more people are designing a septic system larger than they need correct for the current building and in fact if someone puts a garage in with an unfinished room over the top and they haven't expanded their septic system I would suggest it is they're going to get stuck and they're going to it's there you you're going to do something with it please plan ahead for yourself and as a new investor the people that I talk to in my realm of world is you do that anyway you you don't want to dig a hole twice it costs a lot of money to excavation in there and legislative everybody knows that I don't want to undermine anybody's intelligence here but he's fears of almost I don't know I've run into problems just on three units uh

so then stop us here and open it up because I've done all the talking to the other planning board members on either backlash and or the affordable housing piece are we going to include any questions in the survey about rooms yes I would like to say are you okay with this language or something yeah it was a public hearing last year and I think everybody left with a warm and fuzzy that it was okay and then it wasn't at the tunnel meeting so the more input we get yeah yeah you could ask that question if you have a road serving five family members uh they're giving off lots to their children should that be allowed to be gravel or should be paid that would be an example of the question you might put on the server and the width yeah you want to try to keep it so that the survey question doesn't raise more questions you're doing the service they have to really keep it in simple language it may not be effect technically precise but at

least the person understands what you're asking Finance Allen and I will follow up with the fire chief to talk about this issue that's come up I'm sure he already said he's okay with a single family called in fact they want the question would be okay what if they had an accessory Department and what if under the new law they'll have we have to allow duplex back there which would still be okay with the 16 feet and we could put in if it's more than if it's two or more then it has to be two or more dwelling units it has to be 20 feet if you put that right into that

a lot on the front in the back line same access and all that I think then I think you'd get funded over into here and assess the two or more backlogs although that says well you could have a chatbot and then the principal rod from the background you could both have come by your access oh crap

of wide wider to the split yes we'll come back and say so you know we don't actually want to make it more expensive for somebody to do it I mean part of their goal should be to you know there are lots of people out there who would like I'm not one of them who would like their kids to move back to uh

there because uh there are people who either want to take care of grandma or take care of the kids or vice versa so okay I'm sorry any Allen okay so then the next steps are um I'll get the survey out there and then please talk it up please make sure your friends know I mean if there's a reason they can't come uh this stuff is on the web uh there's a town page and they can email George if if they have stuff but we are looking for for Town input and uh we want to we want to keep this process going at the same time and as a point for the other things we as a planning board are handling these two projects the Conservation Commission is handling the resource protection um taking properties out that shouldn't be there putting properties in that that should be so they're also doing the same process Theirs to keep your eyes open for their process and the historical commission is working on some changes to

their their ordinance as well so thank you all for coming and I much appreciate it like