TranscriptOctober 3, 2020 ~ Public Hearing (Part 1)

Okay, welcome everyone. Uh, tonight is a public hearing uh to uh give the town an opportunity to ask questions and make comments and and hear some information about several uh municipal articles that we um are putting on a referendum ballot uh in conjunction with the November 3rd uh national election. The board saw this as a pretty unique opportunity on a lot of pretty important issues to get um you know, we anticipate well over 2,000 people voting and and having their say uh in these issues. Um we've had a pretty concerted effort to get as much information out there as possible. There's a bunch of stuff, including the documents we're going to review tonight, um on the website. Um we've mailed notices to every household about these public hearings and the meeting itself. Um, so we're really uh really making an effort to in this kind of electronic meeting world, you know, get the word out and educate people and and get the

most informed, broadest representation of voters, um, that we can. So, uh, tonight is a step in that. I'm going to share my screen here for a second and show, uh, an agenda. Um, this will be the first of two public hearings. Uh we have one this evening and then Saturday morning, October 3rd will essentially the same. It'll be the same format. It'll be a repeat uh of this. Uh people are certainly welcome to go to both, but we really wanted to provide kind of a weekn night opportunity and a weekend opportunity to try to um get as many people as possible involved that wanted to be involved. So, our our plan for tonight, um just a few rules of the road before we get going. Um when you want to speak, there's a raise uh your hand button. Uh you should see that in the um in the Zoom um application. Um and if you're not seeing it, click the three dots like next to your name and you should see a raise

hand button there. or at the bottom there's a participants button that I think you can open up and towards the when that panel opens up towards the bottom there's a button that says raise hand. So um town office staff will be um

acknowledging people when it's their turn to speak and um turning on uh their microphone or or I'm not sure if they have to turn it on or if you turn it on yourself. We'll figure that out. So, so please use that and just like any other public hearing or town meeting, uh when it is your turn to speak, please uh state your name and your street um so that we know who you are. Um please uh keep your comments to three minutes or less. You know, if we have a um a limited turnout and people want to speak a second time, I think that's probably going to be fine. But if we have like a lot of people looking for the opportunity to speak, then um we might, you know, need to be a little more um strict with the three minute rule. Um and as with other meetings, um it's really only Durham residents and town employees will be um permitted to speak. Um and that's not something we need to vote on. That's these legislative

hearings are fairly unstructured. Those are just rules set by um the board to make sure that we're hearing from Durham residents about Durham issues. And then obviously town employees oftentimes have context that uh people are interested in hearing about. So we um obviously need them to be able to speak too. So there's kind of four buckets of issues that are on the ballot uh in November um or earlier if you're voting absentee. Um there's a a question about

the historic district commission, a very minor change that they've asked for there. Um, shoreland zoning ordinance articles um that representatives from our planning board will talk about. Um, articles about the proposal to hire a town manager and then also articles about what type, if any, of marijuana commercial activity um the town is is interested in seeing. So, we'll kind of do an open the hearing, close the hearing on each of those topics so that we're not jumping all over the place. Um, and we'll go from there. Okay.

Going to stop sharing. So, the the first one, um, historic district commission. Um, technically this is part of land use ordinance, but really this is the the only question here is the the district commission would like to uh increase the number of alternate members on the commission from two to four just so they have kind of a you know more bench strength if you will and more more help available to them. Um and because it's a

um the two alternate members is written into the ordinance to make it four, we have to actually change the ordinance and changing an ordinance requires a town vote. So that's what's going on here. But that's really all that's involved in that historic district commission question. So does anybody is there any public comment or questions on the historic district commission topic?

I don't see anybody. I'm not either. Okay. All right. Then I'm going to move on then. Uh the next topic uh that we'll open the hearing for is uh changes to the shoreland zoning ordinance articles. Then I'm going to turn it over to our planning board chairperson uh an to uh talk about that.

Hi everyone. Um as Kevin mentioned, my name is Anne Tor Grosa and I am the current planning board chair. So, the planning board has been working really hard on amending our current land use ordinance and we've had the help of George um the barar our town planner and

one of our first goals was to amend the shoreland zoning pieces of our ordinance in order to bring it into compliance with state law. And so before I get into what we're actually changing, I want to give you a little bit of reference on how our ordinance interacts with state law. So back in the late 80s or early 90s, the state legislature passed shoreland zoning rules, the shoreland zoning statute that governed

what you could do within certain distances of certain mostly water resources including wetlands and rivers and things like that. and they ordered and then the DP, the Department of Environmental Protection, the main D passed um a big long list of rules. Um

that's actually pretty lengthy. And what the statute required was that each municipality in Maine adopt their own shoreland zoning ordinance consistent with the D rules. Um, Durham is a list of about is on a list of about 40 or so municipalities that didn't. And so in 1994, the board of environmental protection actually held a hearing and imposed shoreland zoning ordinance requirements on us. Um, so the you can look it up on their website. There's a an ordinance that applies to us and there's a map that applies to us. The state has imposed. And so what that means is that if you come to the planning board or the code enforcement officer or the zoning board of appeals or the selectman, we are obligated to apply the state rules, not just our local ordinance because it's been imposed upon us by the state. And if we don't do that, actually the state could sue us. Um, and the state has done has has sued

municipalities in the past over shorland zoning issues. We certainly don't want to be in that position. Um, so what this or this ordinance change does is it brings us into compliance with the D regulations and the DP has reviewed it, has given us a tenative thumbs up. Once this passes town meeting, it'll go back to DP for final approval. And once they give it final approval, they will lift the state imposed ordinance on us. Um, and so you

might ask, well, if it already applies, if these rules already apply, why why bother, right? We um and there are a couple reasons why bother. Um, one, we have more control over what applies if it's in our ordinance. we have to follow the minimum rules, but we can also be more restrictive than the state. Um, and also there are limitations in other rules that are imposed on us if we don't have our own shoreland zoning. So, some of you may be aware of the giant asphalt pile on 136 next to the river. Um, the

selectsmen's hands were somewhat tied in dealing with that. I'm not saying this is why they didn't deal with it, but um because we don't have our own shoreland zoning. So, there are implications for enforcing our own ordinances if we don't have an approved shoreland zoning ordinance. Um, and then most importantly, I think it's important to comply with state law because we're required to. So, what the planning board did is George took an initial stab at getting our ordinances in order and did an excellent job. And we also hired a consultant who was Mike Morse. And Mike actually used to be the D shoreland zoning person for southern Maine. So he

uh he knows what he's doing and has a lot of experience with this. So they both went through our maps and our ordinances and they made edits, excuse me. Um they made edits to bring us into compliance with the shoreland zoning rules at the state level. And what we did, what the planning board did, although we have the option to be more strict than the state minimum, the planning board decided that we would be um we would meet the minimum standard that we had to. So we wouldn't impose more strict requirements on these new areas or through these new definitions that we um than we had to.

And so we w up changing some items in the ordinance itself, some definitions, some things related to the land use table. And then we also have to change our map to add a few more areas into the shoreland zone. We put those in limited residential. Um

real quick? I do think it will be helpful to look at those. Yeah, go right ahead. I think you should have the power to do that. So, um, Whoa. on our current map. Um, and so the Whoops. Sorry. Um, so these were the areas identified by both Mike and the D. So the D said, "Hey Durham, you need to get these areas into protection." Um, so wetland one is going to be limited residential, which has some abilities and that you can see right here. Um, wetland two, and George, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these, is what's called a forested wetland that's going into resource protection. Wetland three is here um which is going

into resource protection. Wetland four you can see at the bottom five and six. So these are the areas that are being impacted on our map. And I can go into more specifics about the ordinance changes if folks are interested. Um but I think that will probably have fewer impacts on people than changes to the map. So, um, I have other members of the

planning board here. We're happy to answer any questions you have. We did have quite a few public workshops and we took public comment at a at a few of these which was really helpful to us. Um, but that's the framework. That's why we're moving forward with this. That's why we're doing this work. Um, and this is work that every municipality in the state has to do or has it done for them by the D, which is currently where we are. So, I think that's all I have, Kevin.

Okay. Um, Ruth, uh, I can't see the, um, participant list. Um, oh, there we go. Okay. All right. Jane, I'm gonna unmute you. Yes. Okay. So, Jane Rice Bowie Hill Road. I own four pieces of property in this area here that is being added on as new. Um,

first of all, I did go to two of the planning meetings. Um, they did listen to concerns, but at the end of the meeting, they pretty much did what they wanted to do. Um, which was to expedite it through to get it to a vote. Um, there was some talk about, um, having the town spend more time and do a delineation map themselves. However, I believe the board

felt like they have beat it to death and they didn't want to have to deal with it. So, um we'll just push it through. Um we were told that we would have it allowed to be on the public floor so that people could talk back and forth. Um I guess my concern is that I don't feel that a Zoom meeting represents the entire town. Um, yes, I know how to use Zoom because I use it for work. However, um, I have a mother-in-law that lives next door that doesn't even know what Zoom is. Um, she's a conservative, um,

taxpayer, as of a lot of older people that I don't think are participating. So, number one, I don't think it's a fair represented representation to have it this way. And I know co um you know Janet Mills allows meetings to go this way but I don't think it's the

uh venue to use to get a fair demographic of the taxpayers. Um, I think what I'm most angry about is that number one, the only people that got a letter on this are people that are, and correct me if I'm wrong, are people that are on the new two new maps that are or areas that are moved in, which is a very few people in the whole town. However,

those are the only people that have been notified that yes, there might be a problem that you should dig a little deeper. Other people that would hear this is are just going to say, "Yep, we got to do what we got to do." Um,

it really does affect our properties and bottom line, it's going to cost the taxpayer individually money. um if they want to do something on their land and it has any kind of water touching even a little bit at the edge of it, you will be required to do a delineation um zoning map which at your cost. Um,

and I think it could have been avoided if the town took their time and did it the way that they were proposing at the planned meeting and then at the very end just said, "No, we're just going to put it through and let it go to a vote." So, um, I guess I'm a little angry. So, um, I, you know, at this point it's a matter of it's already on the ballot. Um, I don't think I have a prayer, but I think I want it publicly stated that I think that we're um we're doing a disservice to the town's people of Durham. Um, at the last meeting I was at, three people resigned from that board and that just speaks volumes to me. So, um, I

don't know where the board has gone since then. I, um, I didn't follow at that point. So, That's all. Yep. Um Oh, can I ask one more question? How many people are on this Zoom meeting besides your How many taxpayers are on this Zoom meeting?

There are 37 attending this meeting? Well, and there's a be and then a small handful of them are are town employees that don't live in don't actually live in the town. So, so 37 people total between the board, which I think you told me were 12 people

along with taxpayers to equal 37, you, for a public hearing is a larger turnout than we normally get when we do an in-person public hearing. Well, and it doesn't it doesn't give the taxpayer at town meeting a time to even ask questions or anything. This is it. This is all the taxpayers are going to get. And I I have a real hard time with that.

Yep. Understood. And it it's um but I think the you know Zoom wasn't is not the only way to participate. There's also someone you can just call in um on a phone and you can uh you wouldn't have the the video portion obviously, but you can listen and participate uh via phone. I think we have at least one person I can see that's that's doing that and uh maybe two. There's another Samsung phone down there on the list. So, um, yeah, I I I hear what you're saying, you know, but, um, I think this notion that town meeting is like the ideal vehicle for gathering a broad spectrum of public input is is is not really true either. I mean, typically we have 150 or less people at an in-person town meeting. In I think in this case the board saw the opportunity to get a much broader uh representation of public input and uh while not ideal um it is uh it's it's

the best we could do because realistically we think it's very unlikely that we will be able to have an in-person town meeting uh next April. So, and I think those things should wait. Well, we we're going to keep moving forward with the town business uh using the tools that we have. So,

Neil is got his hand up, so I'm gonna click on him. who who determines the wetlands uh zoning geography? And if if if we're meeting state minimums, why do we why do we even need this? Why isn't the state sort of imposing this is kind of anformational question. Why doesn't the state just impose this on us?

but we are so we are required to adopt it as part of our ordinances under state state law. Because we didn't the state has imposed it on us because we haven't adopted it as part of our ordinances. There are limitations in other areas that we can't take enforcement on and other things. So that's why it needs to be incorporated into our ordinance. I think that answers your I hope that answers your second question. For your first question, it's actually DP working with our consultant that determines the wetlands. And actually, just to address Jane's issue, um she asked at public meeting that we basically the town hire a surveyor to survey the individual properties that would be impacted by this. No town in the state does that and that would be a cost to the taxpayers. um that frankly the planning board wasn't willing to impose particularly when nobody else does it. Um and also that cost to an individual applicant is

the same after this passes as it is today. So if someone in one of these new areas came to us yesterday, the planning board, we would say, "Hey, you need to go get a survey and delineate those wetlands because the D has them marked as wetlands, even if the town doesn't." So, um I don't know if that answers both of your questions, Neil, but if you have a follow-up, I'd be happy to.

Well, yeah. Again, justformationally, so if the states impose these already, what what's the penalty if we don't approve these? Is if it is it automatic that, you know, we just got to do it or I don't quite understand why we have to do this if the state's already determined it's the law

because it limits us in other areas. enforcement areas. That doesn't mean anything to me. So, the asphalt pile on 136, right? That's within well within 250 ft of the river, right? The selectmen were limited in what they could do about that asphalt pile because we didn't have an approved shoreland zoning ordinance. And

state that's a state asphalt pile, right? But if we had a short they're breaking their own law. Yeah. Yes. Um the town was limited in what they could do about it because we didn't have an adopted shoreland zoning ordinance. And that's just one example of the consequence of us not doing it. There are other examples throughout state statute.

Okay, I get the I get the picture. I'll be quiet. Thank you. Thank you, Neil. Thank you for the question, not for being quiet. Uh Ruth, any uh So, there is a question in the question and answer. Um it says Southwest Bend Historic District Ferry Road. Will we need to go through additional steps to add a garage due to river frontage like the mapping?

question? Because I'm not sure I do. Yes, I think the question is will this now put additional requirements on someone who lives in the historic district near the the uh Anderson River that southwest bend historic district. uh if the property and the proposed uh garage to be added is within 250 ft of the river. Currently that is all resource protection and uh there are rules that talk about expansions within even resource protection but generally uh no development is allowed within 250 ft of the river currently both under the town's uh zoning as well as the state imposed shoreland zoning. So uh but again there may be provisions in there for what they call the expansion of non-conforming uses. So even though something is not allowed there is a process by which someone can go through to go to the board of zoning appeals I think uh and and have a review of that and there are specific rules and those

are actually in this draft which is part of the issue. Um right now as you've pointed out and accurately the state has imposed the the model guidelines on the town. The town has some regulations uh related to shoreline zoning issues and unfortunately one of the additional reasons for doing this is right now the code enforcement officer in trying to do his job has two sets of rules and they don't line up and so there's there's a lot of confusion for property owners for the code enforcement officer for someone trying to get a building permit which rules do I go by and so the goal here is to make the town's regulations consistent with the state regulations and get everybody on same page. So hopefully I answered that specific question about the garage expansion in the southwest Ben district if it's within 250 ft of the river.

And so I think just to bring us back to this, the answer for Daniel is the same under the existing ordinance as under the ordinance that will be proposed. This will not change anything with respect to that. If the garage is within 250 ft of the river, then there are other rules that will apply and limitations that will apply.

looks like another one po. Oh, Daniel says, "Thank you for that answer in the chat." Um, Jane, I just want Jane and Neil, your hands are still up. I don't know if you have additional comments or questions or if it's just up from before. Neil's is down now. James is still up. Jane, did you have something else to add?

can you hear me? Oh, now we can. Yep. Okay. So, I just wanted to make a comment back because Ann um stated that at the last meeting that um what I was talking about was having a delineation surveyor do just the two new areas. And that's not what we discussed. I think the planning board had discussed doing the entire town because the complaint was that those lines were not clear. And

so, how was a person supposed to know what what was what they were going to go by or not? And so, that was the conversation that came up. It wasn't just because Jane wanted it done in her two little or the two new areas. It was done for the It was supposed to or talked about done for the whole town. And when I left the meeting, that's what I thought they were doing. But when I reread the transcript or looked at the um you know, the replay of it, people had talked in the background and said, "Nope, nope. We'll just put it through and and off it went." So that's where I'm coming with that piece right there. Um,

I didn't want you to think I just wanted someone to do me a favor. It wasn't me. It was to make it clear for every taxpayer where those lines were. That's it. Okay. Thank you, Jane. Yep. shoreland zoning um topic? So we are going to move on to the uh next topic which is the town manager and uh thank you very much. Okay. So um so we're now open for discussion on the town manager proposal. I do have a um presentation that I'm going to go through um that may answer a lot of questions ahead of time um or generate some questions that you about stuff you hadn't thought about. This presentation that I'm about to go through is on the town website and has been for I think a couple of weeks now. Um but we'll go and it will continue to be up there for to reference further on or you can follow along if you want. But I am going to share my screen so that everybody can see it.

um a little bit of an introduction, a look at, you know, what the current state of Durham's town government structure is and and how it's changed over the last few years. Uh the key benefits to having a town manager, a cost estimate, uh what a transition timeline would look like, what the search and selection process would look like, what would change and what would not change uh in town with regard to things like committees and town meeting and things like that. Um and then kind of a summary of the roles that people or different functions play uh if we do have a town manager. And then in the appendix is a couple of different organizational charts um that kind of illustrate the structure with and without um a town manager. So,

so really what's been driving uh this um the recognized need uh by the board for a town manager is that you know it's it managing a municipality even even one a midsize one like Durham is becoming more and more complex and it's something that's uh becoming less and less realistic for a um a part-time

um elected officials to properly oversee uh those functions or to the degree that we would all like to see them um supervised. And you know, kind of telling is that, you know, currently 85% of communities in Maine with populations over 3,500 have a town manager. Uh Durham as of the last census was just under 4,000. And you know, I'm sure when the next census comes out, we're going to be, you know, a bit bigger than that. So, um, we're at the size where a lot of communities make that transition, um, to a town manager. So, this presentation will kind of go through, you know, what that might look like, how it would cost, how much it would cost, and, um, things of that sort. So, this last paragraph kind of talks about, you know, a common question is like, well, what's the difference between, you know, having a town administrator and a town manager? And the key difference is kind of their scope of work and responsibility. So a

town administrator and I will let me say we have a very good town administrator right now um is responsible for the town office staff and the administrative budget whereas a town manager is kind of responsible for everything. So every all the functions would report up through the town manager. So that's, you know, the road commissioner, fire chief, planner, code enforcement officer, um, town office staff. So that all of our department heads have a direct supervisor, which is something they don't have, uh, today. Um, so that's and then on the the other key area is in the budget. Like right now all the department heads do their own budget, you know, somewhat in a silo. Um but with a town manager kind of with a um overall responsibility, you know, they manage how that all those pieces come together and uh generally you can get some efficiencies out of that and and keep taxes as low as possible.

it's changed a little bit. You know, uh we have several positions and an entire public works department, you know, that didn't exist several years ago. So now we have 10 full-time employees whereas uh in 2014 we had four. But the structure of the the town's employees in the organization and how it's run uh hasn't changed uh in response to that growth. Um one thing a lot of people are not aware of is that the department heads report to the board of selectmen as a group. Uh as selectman none of us have any sort of authority at all as individuals. It's only as a board when we meet um twice a month. So if there's an issue uh with a

um department head, then there isn't a day-to-day supervisor there that can kind of you know take care of it immediately. And and it's not just when there are issues. It's it's if there is um you know just coaching and feedback and all the things that you know anybody that has a boss a good you know especially a good one uh enjoys in their job but they don't they don't have that resource. So um let's see and then when I say department heads again I'm talking about fire chief public works code enforcement town planner um which is a part-time position and the uh town administrator. Um, another thing, you know, select boards, uh, typically members don't have the experience and expertise in a lot of the municipal government operations, regulations, uh, human resource management, um, that a town manager would have. Um, and I think for the most part, you know, boards do okay, but there's a pretty significant risk to the

town. um if especially if you make a mistake in like say human resource management and open yourself up to it some sort of um you know human rights lawsuit or something like that. Um so having that professional management is important there. Um and right now as we said before no single role has crossunctional responsibility and accountability for the town budget and operations.

of really it's I I put it into three buckets. It's human resource management because it's that daily leadership and supervision for all the department heads and staff. Continuity of leadership, you know, as select board membership changes, you know, as it obviously does over the years. Um ensure employment issues are handled properly and according to state and federal laws. And then we talked about budget management as another key area. you know, the townwide budget focus versus just focus on, you know, your own department. Uh day-to-day oversight of town expenditures across all departments and uh a level of expertise uh and long-term planning and management of capital expenditures. And one other aspect or benefit of a town manager that I haven't really mentioned yet is kind of that strategic guidance and vision. you know, having that ability and and experience to kind of be able to pick your head up and look

over the horizon a little bit and not just be dealing with every little daily task that comes at us every day. So, you know, being able to identify trends and opportunities uh and threats as well. Um, and I'm not necessarily talking about security threats, but you know, things that could perhaps result in a big tax impact to residents or something like that. Um, and then we look to that position to make appropriate recommendations to the board. Um, we often hear anecdotal stories from other towns that have added a town manager that it's it's given them more visibility and exposure to, you know, grant opportunities and maybe other funding sources that are out there. And it's, as I've mentioned at first, it's that ability to navigate the increasingly complex municipal, state, uh, and federal regulatory environment. So th those are the three main areas where having a town manager would benefit, um,

Durham. So, how much would it cost? Um and these are estimates but we feel pretty good about these estimates based on the uh we did some we used the MMA main municipal association resources to do some salary survey work of of comparable size towns um and what the town manager salary typically was um and that's what's included here. So important to note that um the town manager position would replace the town administrator position. we wouldn't be adding an additional uh employee. The salary expense difference between what we're paying now and what we would pay uh for a town manager in the future uh is approximately $35,000. You know, I mean, that could go a few thousand either way, but based upon the information we have right now in terms of what we're spending for that position, um that would be um the difference. And our m total municipal budget is a little over $3.5 million. So this would be an increase of a little

less than than 1% on on the municipal budget. And the municipal budget is typically about 23 to 24% of the total um expenditures uh for the town that including schools, county, and and um the what they call the overlay. So, um, we do include onetime expenses of up to $8,000 for, uh, executive search services. And I'll talk more in detail about that later in the presentation, but essentially we would, um, this is a really important position. And typically towns use services from the main municipal association or in some cases a private law firm um, to assist with the search uh, and selection of a new town manager. So we we the board considers this funding and uh you know kind of critical to successfully hiring a town manager if the town uh approves wants to hire a town manager. So um approving the town manager without the funds for the search uh would um put us in a really difficult position because um we want this is a

really important thing and we want to make sure that we do it right. So so November 3rd is the actual vote. So there's the article first asking the town if you want to adopt uh the town manager plan. Uh and that and as detailed in uh title 3A and the citation is there and there's also a link here where you can go read it yourself. Um it is it is um it's a it's technically a a change in the form of government if you will which is why we have to vote on it because uh a town manager is a legally defined position in state law whereas a town administrator is not. Uh town administrator is essentially whatever a town wants it to be. Um whereas town manager is is a legal construct. But as you'll see it it it doesn't really change anything about uh town meeting or or how um the functions of various committees or anything like that works. Um so and the second article is where we're asking for approval of the funds

to do the executive search. So if both of those were approved um we would immediately start the process with main municipal association uh and that starting in November and taking us through March. And we've already um discussed this possibility with main municipal association to see if this timeline was possible and realistic and they assured us that it definitely was. Um and then at the April 2021 annual town meeting is when this change to a town manager structure uh would become effective.

this is this is basically what it would look like if we were if we hired May municipal association and had them assist us in the search and selection of the um of a town manager. So step one is a needs assessment assessment. So they'll MMA would come in and sit with the board and obtain you know kind of a consensus of the priorities or qualifications the skills like what are we looking for in the position. Uh there would also be a lot of public input at this stage on what people in town want to see and what's important to them uh in hiring a uh a town manager. Step two is recruitment. Um that could involve a lot of things. Sometimes um uh it could involve you know advertising of some sort or typically it's through internal municipal journal type uh publications and websites that people looking for those types of jobs um use a lot. Um we would develop a rating document which basically looks at the um based upon the

needs assessment and the priorities um how we would score various things that we had identified in that needs assessment. So as we were interviewing people we would use this rating document. review and this would be done by MMA for the town. um they would conduct an initial like review and screening of the resumeumés. Um they would provide all of the résumés that they got to the board, but they would have identified the strongest candidates and also kind of identified a weed out list, if you will, kind of like, you know, here's their resume, but we really don't think this person is qualified. Um but, you know, we get all the information. We don't they don't hold anything back. Uh step five is a resume review uh with the board of selectmen. Um here MMA you know presents and they assist in that review with the board and the goal of this step is to identify candidates who will be interviewed uh for a first round

interview. So step six is the actual uh first round interview. Uh MMA they'll develop the interview structure and the ratings document and handle the uh logistics of scheduling um the interviews. uh and then they will assist in as we go through the process, you know, as a kind of a nonvoting coordinator, facilitator, if you will, in managing managing those interviews. Um it's it's at this step, too, that the board would likely appoint, you know, some citizen stakeholders who wanted to be involved in the first round of interviews and actually participate uh in the interview panel. Um coming out of that there'd be MMA would conduct a background check uh of references and employment histories um for the finalists that were identified uh in step six and kind of report the results of that back to the selectman. Step eight would be the second interview where uh we would interview the finalists. Um, and MMA really gets

involved here in advising us regarding, you know, making sure we're following all the proper procedures in terms of, excuse me, a hiring decision, making an offer, um, dealing with any press releases or communications like that. Um and then in step nine, they act as the um agent for uh presenting the offer and they are kind of the middle person, if you will, or in any negotiation that might go back and forth between the selected candidate and um the board of selectment. So, so that is the that is

the process and assistance basically what we get for our money um by using the uh search services. manager? You know, what are the what are the big things that would be different in town? Um the biggest thing is that all town employees would report up through the town manager, not to the board of selectmen, right? The board of selectmen would no longer be the um in a

employee supervisory role. we would still be um you know have the uh executive responsibility that we have now but in terms of human resource supervisory performance management uh that would be the job of the town manager the town manager would hire all personnel uh but department heads would be subject to select board approval. So if we you know down the road if we have a new um uh new code enforcement officer or fire chief or road commissioner uh the town manager would go through the process of finding a candidate and identifying who they wanted to hire but then they would pres come to the board uh and present the candidate and need approval from the board to hire that uh department head. Um as we as we talked a couple of times or as I talked um the uh town manager would be responsible for the total town budget across all departments. You know that would be a change not so much visible to citizens on a day-to-day

basis but it would be a change for uh department heads and and how internally the budget is managed and and put together. Um and the select board the change for us would be that if if we have direct you know direction or thoughts or opinions or whatever you know for you know department heads you know we need to go through the town manager who would then go to the department head. It would be inappropriate for you know me to go if we had a town manager for me to say go to the fire chief and say chief I really think you ought to be doing this or I don't think you should be doing that you should be doing this other thing. Um, if I had an opinion like that, I would need to take it to the town manager and then it would be up to the town manager to um, take it from there.

very little would change actually. You most things would not change. So, town meeting would still be held and conducted as usual. And I I I guess I'll put as usual in quotes because nothing is usual right now, but once things kind of get back to normal. Um, you know, that doesn't really change town meeting and how that works and how it's run. We would still vote on all the same things we vote on today. Um, the board of selectmen still exists as it does now. As I mentioned, the only difference is we wouldn't have that employee supervisor performance management um responsibility. That would be the town manager. uh the selectant would still appoint members of committees and commissions as we do today and there'd be no change to you know budget committee, planning board or other standing committees. They would still you know function and work and do their business uh as they do today.

manager as we said town meeting remains unchanged. The town meeting is the legislative body as as state law describes it. So it's the legislative function of adopting you know the government policy for the town. It's only town meeting that has the power to you know levy taxes raise and appropriate monies and that would uh remain the case and any authorizing of debts like bond issues or anything like that. Uh that's a town meeting uh vote and uh would still be uh under a town manager form um of organization. Uh the board of selectment remains the executive body. It's our role to interpret policies of the town and choose a course of action between town meetings. Um we have ultimate administrative responsibility still for making sure everything is working uh within the town but we administer that solely through the town manager and the town manager I should say uh does report to the selectman. The selectman are

responsible for um hiring and performance management of the town manager. Um and that's what that fourth point there says that you know we appoint and supervise the town manager. The town manager's role is to execute the town approved government and fiscal policies with guidance from the selectman and that person would have direct responsibility for and authority over all of the administrative functions.

doing the public hearings now. There, as I said, there's information on the website. Um, and this was a I'll show you a couple of charts here. This is the um current structure where you can so there's town meeting and the board. And here the board has both admin executive administrative policy function and direct administrative authority. That's that day-to-day supervisory um responsibility. But with the town manager, essentially what changes is that the town manager is now between the board and all of the uh departments and assumes that direct administrative authority um and responsibility. So, okay. So, I'm going to um open it up for public comments and uh questions.

still up, but I assume that that's from before. Um so, I'm going to go to Jeffrey Wakeakeman. Hey. Hi, Jeff. Hello. Uh this is Jeff Wakeakeman, New Brook Road, and my comments are going to be actually very similar in line with Jane's comments from the last uh section. And I just don't think this is the right time. Um I think going forward

probably the town manager position may be the right thing, but I think we need it. We need to be able to discuss this on a town floor with uh differing opinions. Um right now they said that we had about 37 people on this call. Let's say you get similar number on the Saturday call. So roughly 80 people

and you're expecting over 2,000 people to vote. So 80 people have h have listened to this. That's 4% of what you're expecting to vote. And so 4% are going to be well informed. Maybe well informed actually get to hear maybe some differing opinions because right now all the information out there is in favor because you you guys want this and I understand that. But there is there's no differing of op differing opinions and no back and forth. And I think that's really important for major changes like this.

question and answer. It says, "What role will the town manager play with school budgets?" etc. Um no role. Um the town manager is purely for for um uh for the municipal function as everybody knows that the school budget is uh managed by uh the school board. Um I I I suspect that um I

shouldn't I guess I shouldn't say no role because every year the RSU does reach out to um the community leaders be it town council or select board members and there are a couple of meetings along the way where the budget is discussed and and what's and the towns can talk about you know kind of what they're dealing with and the RSU kind of you know provides some insight on what they're thinking in terms of their budget and there is some give and take there. Um but in terms of you know managing the budget and having any um authority or responsibility for the school budget um there there wouldn't be any for um for there is any for for a town manager.

again so I'm gonna ask her to unmute. Okay. Um, so I'm looking at this um card that we got in the mail about public hearings and at the bottom of it, the last bullet point is adopting the town manager select board town meeting form of government. Um, that doesn't say

we are asking you to vote to hire a town manager in plain English to me. I mean, I guess I honestly didn't know we were even discussing this until I saw someone comment on it on Facebook. Um, so I don't think the word is out. I don't think that this is enough people to give discussion. Um, so that's just my two cents on that. My questions would be um

this is a one-time $8,000 hire, but anytime a town manager should leave Durham, we would have to pay that fee again to hire someone of equal capability, I'm assuming. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, I think um yeah, I would assume so. I think

Okay. So in the salaries, does that include their benefits such as their health insurance and their main state retirement and all of that hoop? No, that that was just uh that's just salary, but that slide is is talking about the increased expense and um the benefits would be a w the b whether someone's you know a road commissioner or a town manager or fire chief whatever the the cost of benefits is the same. So that's a wash. There's no there's no increased benefit cost to a town manager versus a town administrator.

So their main state retirement does not go up with the salary with what would be expected from the town of Durham. Um there might you know there there might be a modest difference there. Um, but you know, m much like there's, you know, you never know whether somebody's going to take a family health insurance policy or an individual health insurance policy.

No, that that really wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking more about I'm assuming that the town has to contribute to mainstate retirement if that person is in mainstate retirement and based on their salary. And I could be incorrect, but I'm just asking that question. So a difference of a $48,000 salary up to an $80,000 salary is almost

a half more what we'd have to pay. So I think that just needs to be reflected out to give a true picture. Ruth, do you have do you know um have any insight to add on that in terms of mainstate retirement and what the potential difference might be? Well, mainstate retire Rob's got his hand up, too. But main state retirement is a percentage of the salary. So, um

like if we collected social security, which we don't. We do main pers instead of social security. Um it would go up by I I don't know the figure offhand whether it's 7% or 7 and a half% now. So you would just multiply the difference by by that much and that's how much the main pers would go up.

Okay. So I think in maybe presenting this to the town that should be reflected out to them and not just say hey here's your salary but it doesn't include your benefit package. You could show that here's the town administrator's salary. Here's their benefit package. Here's what the town manager would be along with their benefit package because that's really giving a better picture of what it will cost the town over time.

I'm done. Transparency, you know, that's it for me for questions. I So the um just seven 7% of the $35,000 difference that we estimated would be uh just under $2,500. there? You look like you were looking to chime in, man.

Ruth covered it. Okay. Okay. So Neil is up next. Go ahead, Neil. Gotta unmute yourself. Uh when I joined the budget committee, I asked Ruth for information or help on understanding municipal governments. She sent me an MMA document and as I and I'm looking at chapter four of that document. I can't tell you the title of it, but it's local government in Maine. And as I read it, it's I think saying that the town meeting selectman manager form of government is what we already have because there are several variations of that form of government including an administrative assistant. So just are we chartered for something specific as a form of government?

Uh no. Uh Durham does not have a charter. So when you when you don't have a charter um you know different things um different um laws apply. So town, as I mentioned earlier, town administrator is not um a role that's defined at all

in state statute, but but town manager is. And the town manager role with with the town manager, there are uh parameters in terms of the hiring and firing and what their qualifies are and things of that sort. So when you adopt, as the state puts it, the town manager plan uh without a charter, it kind of spells out all that detail. And uh that's why we provided the link if people want to get into all the detail, but we have we have covered the significant things in the um presentation kind of in like layman's language if you will, but if you want to go read the statute, we've provided the uh link for that. So, so then just a quick comment from this document. It says in the town meeting selectment manager form of government, the legislative and executive functions of the government remain fully separated. The town meeting continues as a legislative body determining what laws should govern the

town and where the money is to be spent. The board of select minister to uh the executive body but is now has a single chief administrator. But it says there are many variations of this form of government within main communities. Towns have considerable flexibility in determining which offices will be under the town manager, which department the manager will head, which departments have separate persons in charge reporting to the manager, and which officers will be elected at the town meeting. And and you guys control that. So there's a lot of flexibility in that. And so rather than belabor this

whole thing, I kind of agree with Jeff that this should be done at a public town meeting with people able to talk and answer questions. And I mean it's important. I'm not violently opposed to it, but I don't have enough information yet. And then just a part a question. Have you considered a part-time town manager? Um, I think that to answer your question, no, we haven't considered a part-time town manager because uh working as closely as we have um that's not in in the board's opinion that's not what the town needs. Um this we have uh

a full-time staff of over 10 people and they it requires full-time um supervision as the budget does uh as well. So, um that's in the that's in the judgment of of the board. Um to as far as your you're you're right, there is a lot of of um flexibility and and

direction you can go uh with regard to the town manager plan. And where a lot of towns start from is that they're in a position where um maybe the road commissioner and and the treasurer and other offices are still uh elected, if you will. And so if you're still doing that, then when you build your town manager plan, you kind of have to identify how are you going what are you going to do with those positions. But Durham over the years um has already dealt with all of that. Durham has already made the decisions long before we considered a town manager that um that all of these department head positions were not going to be elected, but they were going to be um appointed by the board of selectmen. So they've already handed off that responsibility uh to the executive function um of the board. And so that's one of the reasons that we feel very comfortable with this and that it's a very minor change in

many ways for Durham is that Durham is already like 85% of the way to a town manager plan form of government anyway. The only missing piece is the town manager itself. All the other underlying questions whether they realized they were doing it or not has really already been dealt with uh by the town over the past you know 1015 years.

you have a followup to that based on what I said, or were you good? Uh, I have lots to say, but I'm not going to. Okay. All right. Ruth, who is next? Uh, so there's a couple of questions in the chat. Um, they want to know if the town administrator position would be eliminated with the hiring of the town manager. Um and in in conjunction with that they want to know if the if my duties as the town administrator would be covered by the town manager.

Um so to the first question uh yes the town manager role would replace the um town administrator role. So there's no net increase in position. And uh uh I think initially in in terms of what duties the town manager would assume that the town administrator currently has, I think certainly the in the vast majority of cases the answer is yes to that. But I also think it's true that you know a town manager would come in and maybe look at how town staff is organized a little bit differently and may want to shift some duties around. So, I don't we're not I don't think we want to hire a town manager and then tell that person that well this person does that and the other person does this and and you know and that that's the way it needs to stay. I think one of the things you look for in a town manager is to come with a fresh set of eyes and look at maybe things ought to be done um a little bit differently in some cases. So but I

think for the most part yeah the core functions um of the town administrator would be assumed by uh town manager plus the additional responsibilities of the oversight of other departments and other employees. Yep. John, unmute yourself.

Got it. Um so my question is kind of about the overall capacity in the town office. Um I mean in general I'm I'm supportive of um the shift. Um having been on various boards, committees and working with town staff. Um I I see the gap and the need. Um I guess my bigger question is you know as we grow as a community um will two clerks uh be able to cover the window and allow the town manager uh that we bring in to do the job functions that we're paying them the additional money to do? Um, I just don't have a feel of kind of the capacity at the windows, uh, vacations, holidays, sick time, you know, how much, uh, administrative time is kind of currently used up for that and might draw away from, uh, things the town manager might be working on.

Yeah, I think, um, that I would have a similar response um, to the as the previous question is that we somewhat need to have um, the town manager kind of come in and make an assessment on that. Um, I think it's it's likely that they would say, you know what, if if I'm going to do um more like town manager type stuff, if you will, then I can't be on the windows as many hours as the previous um town administrator was. Uh

but I think there are there are opportunities in the budget to um and in the structure to um shift hours around if you will and look at positions a little bit differently. Like for instance, you know, we have, you know, there's a part-time secretary position, there's a part-time uh information uh technology position. Um there's there are I think there's enough hours there that a town manager could probably um at least in the short term um shift around and and maybe use more efficiently. Um, but it's also completely, you know, it's possible that we could hire a town manager and after, you know, a year or several months or whatever say, you know, we really need, you know, another, you know, part-time person um in the town office and here's why. And if that happens, then it would go through the the budget review and scrutiny process just like anything else and ultimately would would have to be approved um by

the town to happen. and a question. The comment says, "I've served on the D town budget committee a few years ago and I can see a lot of benefit to having a town manager charged with strategic oversight of the whole municipal budget. What level of savings have other towns of RSIs found and in what time frames?

I don't have an answer to that. I And then the second uh question is how can I access the report or study that has been completed which proves the necessity for a town manager? Um there's no report or study. Um you know that we didn't uh this is based on just experience with the board and our interaction with um town government over the past several years. and um

identifying a a need and putting the question um to voters. So there's no there's no formalized study that um identifies a need. Okay. Um and Ter to Grosa, you have your your hand up. Sorry, I just wanted to provide a little my own public comment. Um,

in my professional capacity, I've worked with a lot of towns over the years of varying models and having a single professional in charge of the town streamlines just about everything. Um, it also allows them to build more regional relationships and coalitions. Um, and can be more responsive to concerns of the public, can dedicate more time to that um, and can really help prioritize goals for the town and um, and move the

town in a particular direction much more efficiently. They also um as chair of the planning board, I've also had and this is not in any way a criticism of staff, but because there's no single point of contact, for example, I've asked for something to be done and staff didn't know which one was going to do it and wound up not getting done because that there's no single point of contact. There's no coordination. Um, and I think it would be really helpful to have that one person who they can all report to and figure out how they're supporting the selectmen and the boards and various other things. The one thing I do want to emphasize is that it is critical to get the right person. Um, so I I absolutely agree with the professional search services. Um, but if this goes through, I would really encourage the selectmen that if you don't get the right person the first time around, don't just take anybody. Um, because really the value to

the town will only come if we have someone who has some experience, who knows what they're doing, who has some leadership, and can address the concerns that you have of why you we need a town manager. question about cost savings. Anybody with a title of manager is going to need a secretary. So, you know, that's coming after we hire a town manager. And could someone give me an example of a regional coalition, I guess, which saves us money?

Governments would be one um that we're a member of that provides pretty significant savings on um a lot of materials um that the town buys. So, we're already part of that. Yeah, a part of that. Well, that wasn't your question, Neil.

Well, not quite. Yeah. Okay, whatever. I'm done. You're not going to spit on them and have somebody drill in your mouth. Spit on anybody. They suck it out into this. Don't be 55 gallon. Do you want to do that? Your mic is on.

Yeah, you might want to mute yourself. not see any other comments in the chat or in the question and answer. Okay. town manager comments or questions before we move on to the next topic. So the last topic uh for tonight um don't really have a presentation on this one um but there are several uh articles related to uh marijuana uh on the ballot

and basically for there's basic I think four types of what they call adult use u businesses and four uh medical uh types of businesses and for each of those the the u we are asking if the town wants wants to um allow or opt in, if you will, to that type of business in Durham. And the way those questions have been structured is that if the town says yes to one or more of those types of uh

establishments, then the optin is contingent upon the town later approving a marijuana ordinance. uh that would regulate those types of activities. So really for us, you know, opt-in is is a two-step process. The first step would be this this initial vote that we're talking about right now um for the various types of marijuana activities. If any of those is a yes, we would go to the next step, which would be to um draft uh relevant ordinances

for that type of activity. then those ordinances would go before the town for a vote. Uh and if the ordinance is approved uh then we would have opted in for that activity. If the ordinance is not approved, then we would not be opted in

and we are essentially um still in the opt out and um the process would have to start over if somebody was really looking to have a particular um marijuana related activity approved in town. So step one is asking the town if you want it and step two is development of the ordinances. And we did it that way because there is some expense and resources involved in developing the ordinances. So there is a an additional question much like the search service question for um town manager is you know if any of these activities are approved um we're asking for I think it's $5,000 um to pay for some uh legal services and

professional services to help us you know draft appropriate uh ordinances because if we're if we're going to have some of this activity in town we want to make sure that we are uh appropriately protecting ing the interest of you know neighbors and um other towns people you know from any potential impacts of of these businesses. So, and I wanted to say here, you know, much like the um town manager search funds, um both the board uh the select board and the budget committee have recommended the uh the funds should any of these pass. But um especially the budget committee wanted it to be very clear that just because they recommended approval of the funds does not necessarily mean they are in favor of any of the marijuana establishments happening in town. It was more of a um well if the town approves it, we want to make sure we do it right type of vote. it it shouldn't be interpreted as um any sort of

endorsement u for any of the marijuana um related activities. Okay. There was there was actually quite a bit of concern um in that meeting that there the vote to support the funding would be misinterpreted as a vote supporting marijuana businesses. And um I just want to state as strongly as I can that that was not the case. So,

for any comments or questions on the uh marijuana articles. Okay, I am going to start with the chat because that was up first. Um first of all, they have a I have a thank you for your time spent on these presentations. Um and then I have a comment about marijuana. I see marijuana businesses popping up all over in surrounding towns. I don't see a need for any marijuana related businesses in Durham. I would not want any related businesses in town without a police department, which we don't have.

benefit to the town if these things get approved for? So my my take on this financially for the town is we have real estate taxes and there's no other taxes associated with this. Right? So if if for example the guy who's looking for approval on this already owns land, already owns a building, he plants pot and there's no

increase in the income for the town if that happens. Is is that correct? Yeah, that's that's 99% correct. I would say there might be you know very marginal increase in property tax revenue if the value if the assessed value of the property um would increase for businesses. There's also a small amount of personal property tax um for equipment and things of that sort, but it's it's again not really very significant. what what there is not and some people get confused on this because in the original law um that was passed it was part of it um but it's subsequently was taken out by the legislature is that there is no sharing of any sales tax or excise tax revenue with um with the local communities that are hosting these businesses. So, uh, you're essentially right, Neil. There's there's no, um, there's no revenue stream really from, uh, to the town anyway, uh, from these businesses.

Yeah. Okay. That that's kind of what I thought. So, my brief take on this, as some of you already know, is marijuana is a gateway drug. Wherever pot is, hard drugs follow. A gateway drug provides mindset and opportunity to do other drugs and is a bad idea for the town.

Thank you. Thank you, Neil. Okay. Um Jud Grimes would like to speak, so I am going to allow him to unmute himself. Hello. Hello. Yes, Jud Grimes. Um, I'm on Royalsboro Road at East Branch Farm and um I just wanted to address the um what I'd like to start calling cannabis issues. Um uh I know

that it took some time to adopt that language in even with the state, but that's how it's referred to it uh how it's referred to professionally and in the scientific community. Uh, I think we should start right off the bat um making sure people know that whether it's um caregivers in the medical realm or uh the adult use uh questions that uh we should still think of it like a a medicine that people are using and whether they're using it recreationally now under the um state regulations

uh or still uh choosing to support a local caregiver. think that's important to call it cannabis and remember that it is a medicine. Um, a couple things that really stood out to me right when I saw the language in your um mail out to people uh whatever the the information on the website where I saw it uh mentioning already something about a cap um on businesses. I think that's a horrible idea. They're already voting on it in other towns. you know, this is causing people who are already longtime caregivers being shut out and no longer being able to operate their business uh in the adult uh market uh due to, you know, a town putting a cap on on that. Um, I also think if we're going to start voting on on this, uh, we should remember that, uh, cutting out things like the processing from, you know, only allowing cultivation or processing instead of stores or any any number of these, uh, ways it could go

down. Um, that's like telling a farmer, uh, he can grow strawberries, but he can't make jam out of it. And there's not a store. He can't sell that at a store. Uh, he's going to have to go to another town to do that. So, I think I mean that's crazy. Um, I know I only have a short amount of time, so I'm just kind of trying to jump to the important things that I think people should hear. Um, hiring somebody, I definitely think that that can help, but can also hurt. uh if you're hiring a lawyer who is working for a big outofstate corporate um you know uh uh you know I won't name

them but some of these dispensaries who are who are not local mayors um their their attorneys are going to try to write stuff into our town to hurt the small uh small-time business owners uh so I think we need to be very careful about who we hire um and I think that having a citizen-led committee uh uh like some other towns have done. Um you know, five to seven people uh that that can do a lot of this drafting work and people who are in the industry, people who are on both sides of it. Um you know, people who are who are, you know, worried about things like a gateway drug, which is absolutely not proven and uh completely offensive. Um uh it's actually been proven that um studies show that uh that the use of prescription drugs and related deaths um opioid related deaths have gone down uh in places where they've adopted uh cannabis uh regulations. and and the best way really to protect uh the youth

from getting their hands on this is um is regulating it correctly, not shutting it out of our town and letting a black market uh run things. Uh that's that's going to be the easiest way for uh kids to get their hands on it. Um everyone who voted for this in 2016 wanted uh us

to vote to regulate like alcohol. Uh we've got uh the getand go where I can go get alcohol. Um so I think anyone who's worried about uh the dangers of a medicine uh like cannabis uh should be uh worried about things like alcohol being sold in our town and and the job of the sheriff who who um you know would be handling a lot of this stuff I think um uh is to you know protect our our citizens. And I don't think that um that there's any any proof to um crime going up and and a more you know more burden being hurt put on on on on them. Um the

benefits would be medicine being brought to patients. They don't have to go as far to get it. Um and uh uh if the adult use uh is adopted, that's um a boom in jobs. Um and um I I don't think that uh um sorry I had had one last point. Um yeah, I I don't think that there's any way that this could go wrong um uh bad for us. I think there are a lot of benefits and um and by sitting out of it um that's just uh not letting um businesses that want to proceed in this adult use market that we voted to pass, you know, we're just telling people they can't do something that that they have a right to, they should have a right to. So, um I'm going to leave it there. Um but, uh thanks.

All right. Thank you, Mr. Grimes. Ann has her hand up again. Yep. last comment, I'm not aware of any strawberry jam makers who have ever blown up their facility because they're using butane to process strawberry jam. So, I'll leave that there. Um, I actually am am pretty in line with what Gan has commented. I don't have an issue with marijuana stores or processing or growing in general. Um, people have been obtaining their cannabis medicine in Durham since presumably, you know, for more than 10 years when this became legal. I don't think this changes anything for them. Um, and certainly it's getting easier in all of the surrounding towns. As Jean pointed out, I think it's wrong for Durham because we don't have the staff capacity or sophistication to do this well. Um, you know, there are significant um fire issues particularly with manufacturing, but also with cultivation depending on how it's done. Um, there

are security concerns with any marijuana business, uh, including retail. Testing, frankly, is nobody wants, nobody's going to locate a testing facility in Durham. If they did, I frankly wouldn't care because they're very sophisticated operations to begin with. Um but some of

the the other operations either even operations that are very well funded um make a lot can make a lot of mistakes that can cause some really serious and scary um dangers for our town and I just don't think we have the staff time and sophistication to address it. I also um have been in pretty close communication with the state um who is responsible for enforcing this and they're not going to save us in that area either. They um they're doing the best they can with the staff they have, but their enforcement staff is limited. Their enforcement staff also they're not engineers for um

for equipment and safety either. So, they're doing the best they can, but they're not um they're not going to save Durham from from its own lack of of of staff and ability to oversee this. So, at least for me, I don't see this as a good fit. And as Neil pointed out, there is no there's almost no additional revenue that will come in to Durham from this. And there will be a lot more burden administratively uh even just from neighbor complaints uh and things like that.

Jud Grimes was first. else who wants to go. I have failed that. I've already spoke, but just I I the uh the things that were just brought up. I just I um the saying that uh a processing facility is for some reason going to be uh some uh you're going to blow up with butane. First of all, uh butane is just one of many ways that they extract can uh properties from cannabis. Um uh a lot of the extraction actually the highest end right now top shelf is a uh solventless extraction uh

which uses uh ice water um to extract the tricoms uh from the raw material. So um you're not you're not talking about necessarily having um a a butane explosion here. That's one scenario. And and I believe we're we're talking about, you know, yes or no. Do we want to approve this? And the code that's what we're writing about writing the codes for the ordinance. Um you can you can write all these things in to to make protections uh to make sure people are following uh the right uh um codes for their facility. and and I number one would be that they'd be in complant with the states um uh wording on all this in in in in the um in and

what they've already done to make sure that this is all safe. So, it's not any more dangerous in Durham than it is anywhere else. So, if you're um if you're just saying you're okay with someone in Lisbon blowing up because of butane and and you think that's close enough, um I mean that's your opinion. But um I'm also just wondering about the um uh uh um licensing uh the pro the question everyone has with bringing fee um bringing revenue to the town. Um I'm just wondering why that can't be something also that's worked in. Anyway, that's all I all I have there.

Thanks. Um well I I guess I could answer. I mean I guess it is true. I think some um some towns do uh charge fee for um for the local license. Um, so I guess technically you could you could call that I don't know if I'd call that a revenue stream, but um there I think we said there might be some modest money to the town from you know license fee or um you know any increase in property tax. But I think I think the point that Neil was trying to get at was that it's not like we're get the town is getting you know a piece of the action you know like if the if part of the excise and sales tax was being shared.

Sure. Yeah, not that that would change, you know, probably a lot of people's minds. It's not really about the money. Um but um but yeah, your point is noted that there could be some revenue from licensing fees. market argument for those people out there who may be talking to friends and neighbors is completely bogus because the black market in states like Colorado that have legalized pot has not gone away for the obvious reason these people don't want to pay taxes. So the black market is still active and alive in these states that have had marijuana legalization laws for lots of years. And regarding the the gateway drug issue, I just want to make one final comment and then I'll go away. Marijuana is a gateway drug. It was a gateway drug for me. It started with marijuana. I went through the alphabet and ended in heroin. And you'll I can bring hundreds of people who will testify to that. So,

I don't know where John's coming from. I I don't know what he's trying to push uh on the town of Durham, but it's bogus. Marijuana is a gateway drug and it it doesn't belong in any part of Durm as far as I'm concerned. my my biggest concern with um bringing this additional business into the community is that we don't have zoning districts in our community. Um, I've spent around time around these facilities, uh, some grow facilities in Brunswick in their industrial park. And in that setting, um, the odors and such that emanate from those facilities while might be distracting to, uh, to somebody aren't really in somebody's backyard of their residence, and it's not devaluing their home or having their impact. um having sat on the planning board uh for too many years um and dealt with conditional use permits um where neighbors felt that a daycare was unjectable. Electricians service vans in and out of

their business were uh a challenge. Um trying to fit um what we already have for small businesses in our community is a challenge for our planning board. Um, I think trying to integrate um this business um models, these business models into the community um with what we have for infrastructure for town staff um with what we have for a planning board and the absolute lack of a zoning district where there would be an industrial or retail district that would be appropriate um is the biggest challenge and and you know it's it's such a struggle. Um, I can see it in bigger communities and I can see how we can work. Um, I don't object to it. Um, if it's people's choices, um, I just struggle to see how we fit it in our community since we only have one zone. Everything in Durham is a residential zone. If you want to do other anything that's beyond residential character, there's a conditional use permit

process. And um it is really hard to manage the impacts of businesses um that could be as complicated that would come with some of these marijuana businesses. Um things like odor are very hard to quantify and measure and would really set the board up in a tough position. Um if somebody proposed one of those these businesses and it was permitted into uh a residential area, residential neighborhood and how do you quantify the impact on those residents? That's my biggest concern.

chat um that says, "Agree with John. We need to fix our zoning and other ordinances first. We need to fix the other issues first before adding more." Well said, John. Um, and then Jud Grimes would like to speak again. Hey,

I can cut me off at any point if I'm taking too much time, but I just um as a far I just want to think stop um putting it the the the cannabis industry into what they're thinking it is. A lot of the time you're uh picturing something that it's not. And I just want to remind everyone that uh as a farmer in Durham, uh this is like someone telling me that uh the chickens that I'm raising are are an odor problem. And if they are, um that's something that can be addressed. And and if it's a business who is looking to start uh an agricultural operation, which um in a lot of cases I don't even believe needs to go before the planning board. Um uh but I think that's that's something that when you apply you would uh those neighbors who have concerns have have every right to show up and uh voice their concerns. And and I agree if it's if their plan that they're that they're submitting looks like a uh ridiculous corporate grow

that's, you know, going to pollute our natural resources. I don't want that either. That's the last thing I want. And that's why I want to make sure we do a good job writing the ordinance. And I want um uh people who are in the know and uh in the industry and and know what needs to be written and to protect towns from that. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm not uh trying to push uh anything on anyone, but I don't think that uh telling Durham residents that they're not allowed to participate in something that we voted on uh through the state. um you're that's putting up more uh roadblocks for the small uh business owners and farmers who want to participate there. Um and and and odors can be addressed in many ways. There are are plenty of ways to get around it. There are filters completely eliminate the odor. Anyone who's smelling it in the um industrial park there, that's something that should be addressed and

and I'm sure those growers could uh work harder to eliminate that odor if someone's smelling. There are some varieties that you can grow that have zero odor. Um, that's that's part of the breeding process. Some people uh ha have to deal with this. So, anyway, I'm going to I'm going to leave it there. Um, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Grimes. Um, I'm actually going to throw my own two cents in on this one. Um, I I think that it's it's a lot of things that Mr. crime says are true in that, you know, it's entirely possible for a lot of these marijuana businesses to be very well regulated, very well-run, um, you know, fit into communities and all of that sort, but it takes a lot of resources to make that happen. And that is where I agree with Ann and John that um Durm is not in a position to really devote the resources it would take to have this be um successful type enterprise. Um we're we're just whether it's, you know, we don't have a local police department. Our code enforcement officer is is already maxed out. We have challenges at the planning board level. Um and you know, I Mr. Grimes referenced, you know, the law was approved and and and how can you tell people they can't do what the law approved? Well, uh, one of the main

tenants of the law was that communities have to opt in if they want to participate. So, that that's part of the law. And I think, um, that's what we're asking the community in these questions is, you know, is this something that you want um, Durham to participate in? Um I

I my my personal hope is that it's no because again I just don't think the town has the resources and the structure to um properly manage it. So that that's my two cents. So um any other comments, Ruth? I don't I'm not seeing any.

there's there's just one uh more comment. Says, uh, "Wouldn't a town Oh, wait, another one. Wouldn't a town manager be a resource to help manage a new business such as cannabis?" current It's in um It's in the chat. Oh, it's in the chat, not the Q&A. Okay. Wouldn't a town manager be a resource to help manage a new business such as cannabis? um perhaps some, but the primary it primarily falls on code enforcement, law enforcement, and planning board. And that's not really, you know, certainly the town manager would have oversight over some of those things, but um they're not going to be managing um cannabis businesses in town.

chat. Says, uh, completely agree with Kevin. Why would Durham contemplate taking on the marijuana industry? I'm not seeing any benefit to the town and I don't want taxes going up to benefit a few individual businesses. up in the attendees section as well, Ruth.

Yep, there is one hand up. I am going to Hold on. Because isn't okay. So I have to promote her to a panelist so she can speak which I will do. All right. Elaine, can you unmute yourself now? I'm unmuted. Oh, there you are. Oh,

there we go. Okay, good. It's Robert. It's Robert. Yeah. Uh Kevin, I I agree with you 100%. And uh also John, Ann, and Neil. Um, we own property in another town and our three children live on the same road and it's a it's a uh was a glorified driveway essentially and somebody bought land at

the end of the road and decided to um op operate a uh marijuana farm and open up a marijuana farm stand. So, we've got personal experience on what can happen. And um in this case the um of course I went to the planning board and we attended like three Zoom meetings. Uh and essentially no matter how well written the zoning and the ordinances were, there was the

the the planning board pretty much admitted they just did not have the experience with this with these types of businesses. and uh whether they liked it or not, they they ended up approving it. So So we now have a marijuana farm stand 50 ft from uh my youngest son's driveway, literally 50 feet right across the rightway because there was nothing they could do to the planning board said there was nothing they could do to stop it. They just didn't have the experience dealing with it and they had to let it go through. And I'm I'm afraid that like the comment has been made that Durham does not have a business zone. I see these uh marijuana shops opening up all over the place and in many places they will not have an impact on the traffic. They will not have an impact on the surrounding properties. But wherever we open up one, if we ever open up one in Durham, that's not going to be the case. There's going to be the neighbor the

neighboring properties are going to be impacted and and in a lot of cases there'll be additional traffic. In in our case the cars are going up and down that road at all hours of the day and night because uh typically the hours that they post is 7 a.m. to 700 p.m. And if they could stay open later they would. So, uh, people that sleep during

the day aren't getting much sleep and, uh, that's what we run into. So, we have experience with this and I so I agree that unless Durham had a business district for these places to open a store, then these places in our opinion should do it right and make the investment and find a business district to uh to open up a store. The the other question I have though, I do have a question, is why is this even on the ballot? Because we're opening the door because right now there's going to

be so much competition in certain towns that somebody that wants to open up a retail establishment may say, "Let's find a town that doesn't already have one." So, by putting this on the ballot on the off chance that it passes, wouldn't that open the door to somebody from uh for instance, could be somebody from out of state that comes in with a lot of money and and decides they're going to buy up some property and and uh start growing and selling. So, why are we even putting this on the ballot? My my vote would be no, don't even put it on the ballot to opt in. If nobody's asking for it, why put it on the ballot?

No, that I think that's a good question. That's a fair question. Um, there have been a few citizens that have asked for it, but a small handful. Um, and if you remember, um, we did a straw poll in 2016, I think it was. Um,

I think that's what it was. Anyway, it was a ballot during a a I think it was a the gubanatorial election where we asked the town um in a non-binding vote how they felt about these types of businesses. Um and it was very close, but every single one of them slightly won like you know 52 to

48, you know, type of spread. So, um the board at the time had kind of um committed to and and gave its word, if you will, that you know um that if the questions if the straw poll showed that um the town looked to be in favor that we would put it out to a real vote. And so that's that's where we are. The straw poll indicated that at that time that there's um that there was significant interests in these business activities in town and the board had said if we saw that then we would put it out for a real vote and um that's what we're doing.

comment in the chat. that it says regulate that in the ordinance. Yeah, that's from Mr. Grimes. So, I'm I'm assuming he's talking about some of the um the farm stand comment probably from uh from Bob, but Yep. Yeah. And he does have his hand up again.

Who does? Uh Jud Grimes. Okay. One more time, Mr. Grimes. Hey, am I on? Yes. Yes. Okay. I just wanted to leave it with everyone um uh just to to remember to think of it as a medicine and remember that we passed this so that more people could have access to that. And um and and the way everyone kind of is uh uh you know making it sound like um uh this big scary thing that's going to come in and and the comment about out of out of state with a lot of money. I completely agree. That's the last thing I want and I think we should uh make sure that doesn't happen and I think we could be a leader in Maine amongst other and you know everyone's afraid right now to to we don't have the ability we don't have the resources we don't have the knowledge the planning board is too book the code code enforcement have too we don't have police we could be a leader uh among towns showing them how we wrote an ordin ordinance that stopped all

these scary horrible things from happening in this industry and we did it and and uh and we gave uh the people of Durham and everyone else, you know, access to this plant. So, um I just I'd just like to to remind people that it's medicine that's helped a lot of people and and in many cases is saving people's lives who are who are addicted to other much more dangerous um uh drugs. Thank

you. Okay. Thank you. question. It says, "Please confirm that with the lack of zoning, the current adopted comprehensive plan is designed to direct new businesses to areas that the town deems business appropriate." Is George still with us? I don't know if he is.

I am. Uh so the question is does the comprehensive plan offer any guidance on this issue and the answer specifically no. Uh the comprehensive plan as far as business activities recognize the current policies to allow businesses anywhere in town uh through the conditional use uh review. The one area that it did seem to favor more liberal allowances for businesses was with agricultural operations, but I don't think that marijuana or cannabis was uh anywhere referenced in that uh general language about expanding agriculture.

Okay. Where is he? He was there. I saw him. He's at the top. Okay, there you go. That was accidental. I apologize. Oh, okay. Oh, so you don't have a comment, Chief? Okay. Not at this time. All right. I I do not see any other comments or hands.

Okay. Um then I guess I would uh remind people that we um get to do this all over again on Saturday morning um October 3rd. So if you uh think of new questions or if you want to um you know communicate to some of your friends and neighbors that you think may not have been aware of this and encourage them to attend on Saturday. And again there is a phone only option for people that don't you know um have computers or Zoom or or what have you. So, we definitely want to hear from uh as many people uh as possible. So, but for everyone that attended tonight, I thank you very much uh for your participation and um

we will see how it goes. All right, enjoy the rest of your evening.