TranscriptSelect Board Meeting ~ November 28, 2023

did going to call to order the uh select board meeting here on uh November 28th the Durham select board um we have a quorum uh Rich George is excused tonight um stand for the Pledge of Allegiance [Music] please I Al to the FL flag the United

States of America and to the Republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible liy and justice for we have any amendments to the agenda this evening board members Jerry NOP no okay um public comments anybody here for public comment uh for other issues other than what's on the agenda okay move forward um I will why don't we move to the um by Chief Road commissioner I'll let you gentlemen flip a coin on who would like to go first goes first I

[Music] operation preparedness I guess I don't think I wrote that first sentence very well uh all plows and wings have been put on the trucks uh We've made trial runs um just out making sure that everybody's still remembered how what it was like to have 16 ft of Steel in front of your truck um that's all all went well we've had the trucks calibrated um by uh Viking CYS we've been out well this was two winter events and now it's been three with the freezing rain and snow um we've attended a roadway fundamentals class in Sako for the main Ro local roads division of the MDOT just going over various aspects of road construction and maintenance um we're well staffed at the public works with uh on call drivers for the winter months that's I think most towns wish they could say that every year we've been doing very well um we've been busy with h fall cleanup town properties cemeteries and town office we've done this a few times

we do it week later more leaves fall again more leaves working with mma's loss mitigation department on property deficiencies and repair issues from their inspection this past summer um continued work on the 2024 budget working with Jerry and accountant the accounting firm and met with the CIP committee over the 24 Capital requests so far we guess we have another meeting coming up that's what I've got okay any questions for Calvin I remember they're they're easy um I noticed that at the runaround Pond uh route N9 intersection that one of the stop signs is down and there's kind of a makeshift is that the town or is that the state and where's the status of that that's do I've called him a couple of times I got to call them again tomorrow I'm not sure I went out on the weekend and put up that on a Sunday and put up that temporary sign but they should have been there by now to fix that I will'll

check with them again tomorrow okay thank you and then I'm I'm also wondering and you don't have to give us an update about this now but maybe um the next time that we talk if there's been any concern about the um fowl that are at that intersection and people being able to get off the road safely right there I I have some concerns about about safety around that and I'm just wondering if there's been um any concerns expressed to to town staff about it I've heard comments that they're there that's it heard any complaints but okay there it is I'll let you know okay thanks Calvin thank you Calvin have a good evening be safe out

there Chief good evening Hi how are we doing how are you okay thank you good good uh if I may start with the fou yeah uh recently uh there was multiple cars there and one had their hazards so late at night I stopped I thought it might be a car accident actually normally there's one but I did get to talk to some participating members I think they're trying to figure out a driveway to get off of the road um they are sharing that property with the owner um the fire department doesn't have a concern it would be Calvin but they are trying to figure out how to completely get off the road because they understand that that intersection is busy and uh sometimes it's blind if you will so I think it work in progress best I got okay just by stopping thank you uh you'll see on my agenda the first thing was a possible Commendation presentation uh they haven't come in yet I I'll just have to wait uh I'm going to drag three

uh members in front of you and give them commendations for their uh participation and uh they responded to the Lewiston shooting uh they were there for three hours unbelievable highrisk and uh um stress and they deserve it so I'll tell the story standing next to him uh when we bring them to you but uh unbelievable oh boy you're going to make me cry on camera I hope not if I can hold it in but un unbelievable uh those guys deserve recognition uh speaking of recognition uh Ken scrier officially retired from Durham fire with Decades of service uh he held almost every rank including Deputy Chief and senior engineer uh we owe him a a bit of gratitude uh he retires at the age of 75 from us uh and he was his last day I think he went to Lisbon fire and the next day we had a reported structure fire at the get and go he was first in so um you can't ask for more than that I appreciate him um as you know probably in your packet

you saw Durham fire was awarded a $20,000 Grant from Andrew scen County EMA for the purchase of radios um that's just a a better relationship now Us and Them working with them countless hours of going and schooling and education and whatnot uh working with Jerry about funding that because we have to as a town uh purchase those radios up front before we get reimbursed we'll get reimbursed right away but coming in the New Year the fiscal year we we'll try to work together I I don't have that in the budget so uh I'm sure Jerry can speak to it at a later date but we'll purchase uh I think that's four or five Portables and a Truck Radio doesn't go far I mean it's a lot of money it doesn't go far but we appreciate their assistance um I participated in training with Freeport fire we went over to LL Bean's new headquarters um that's impressive uh we had sat for a 2hour update including their water department and maintenance

on the fire suppression needs of that building I think it's on Casco street but they went over every building they own and I'm not up on it I just know the flagship um and that's impressive from from Bean's house uh and they have some unique fire suppression systems over there that would be called um gas suppression systems um and other stuff uh they hold records and antiques and it's impressive so it was nice to be uh on a Wednesday night invited over there do some training with those guys a quick reminder December 16th I think that's a Saturday at 6 PM uh your Durham fire Honor Guard will post the colors at the main Mariners hockey game uh sort of like the Sea Dogs game they're going to be out on the ice and post the colors so uh that's on the town website for discounted tickets town invited uh the fire department's going family and whatnot um and lastly uh at least three of our members have upgraded their EMS

license to an advanced level they're all going through paramedic school so they're Advanced right now um so they continue to work to that lure but it it helps us it helps the citizens uh so that's a win for us that's all I got tonight great I'll just that up thank you to Ken scrier great job uh I know he's been on the department forever since I ever got here and uh yeah I know he's been through a lot of things so yes appreciate his hard work and time hea Joe I don't care which one um

talking about Mr scrier I don't know if it's appropriate or not but that feels like something that could be memorialized in the town report if we're not past a deadline I think it would be nice to do I I can take care to do I'm not giving you direction if if the board wants to vote on that just do yeah that's just what my comment was because I think K like over 40 years almost 30 or 40 years yeah he he actually stopped counting it was math it was a lot of math but yeah a dedicated uh volunteer for us and of course his wife still you know dedicates time to the Eureka Center so great quite a family all right you Chief no anybody else no super great thank you very much thank you thank you be safe out there thank you TR safe yeah stay warm

tonight Jerry no business all right all right new business uh we got 12 Rabbit Road setback violation and I will invite up whoever would like to present this or sure come on up to the microphone introduce yourself tell us you live if you're in town my name is Michael Malloy I'm a lawyer in Auburn and I represent the applicants e and Terry free who are here tonight also with me are the Brokers U on both buyer and seller side of the transaction as well as the potential purchasers of this property we've submitted some application materials to you we're here tonight asking you to authorize Town staff to issue a no action letter that the that the town does not intend to take any enfor for M action against a garage that was built within a setback requirement there's a small corner of the garage that's within six feet of the property boundary uh it's only only a portion of the garage there um and the setback

requirement is is 20 feet U they were before the board of appeals seeking a variance last week that was unsuccessful the board marched through all the factors for a variance first finding that there were no other violations of town code at this property no enforcement action is currently pending they found that um this setback

constitutes a hardship upon the property owners because it prevents them from selling and passing clear title to the property it's also a hardship on a young couple who want to move to town and purchase this because they cannot get title insurance to their acquisition loan without it the one stumbling block was the T the board of appeals struggled with um whether Eileen and Terry bore some responsibility because they applied for a building permit and our position was that they were they were actually told by a past Town employee to locate the garage where it is now which was incorrect and so that's where some of the affidavits that are in front of you are and if the town were to take enforcement action we would be arguing that the town is equitably barred from um basically enforcing an action that they told them to take everybody here is happy to answer any questions about the facts but essentially um we're asking

you to really just confirm that the town is not taking any enforcement action now and really doesn't anticipate taking any uh and if we can have a letter to that effect then we think that the transaction would be able to proceed we're not asking you to um bend the rules for any other communities uh members or open the floodgates or rezone a part of the area just to Grant a little bit of Mercy to a reti fired couple who um made a mistake um in Reliance on what the town told them and it was only caught when they went to sell a property okay Michael um any board

member have a question for Michael who specifically was told um who who specifically you saying was told or your clients were saying was told by the former Cod officer it was a former uh Road commissioner told Terry free you're going to have the property the garage be flushed with where the house is from the setback and said no put it um over where there's a high ground for some drainage purposes and told them basically said put it there and so they changed the location of where the garage was actually built based on that the town never uh

no no you're welcome to call anybody you want up to the microphone but I don't want people from the audience buting into this thank you realize Terry can come up and he can describe that because there's an issue of wanting the garage to be lined up with the driveway in the in the um my name is Terry free I'm

Co okay hi hi Terry hi um what I what I remember of um I talked to the uh Road commissioner about putting the driveway in and he said that he wanted the driveway on the high side of uh you know the land because he didn't want it to interfere with the water runoff and he at that time he said that we had to move the garage 90 feet from the center of the road which is where we ended up putting the garage and that's that pushed the back corner into the setback Zone which my wife and I didn't realize that that's that's what happened and um the uh the the um driveway went in and he

had said that if he comes back and we didn't put the driveway where he wanted it then we would have to move it so we wasn't going to argue that point we just put it where he said he wanted it and left it at driveway but that's what pushed that's what pushed the garage 15 ft further okay Josh and and my understanding is that would have changed the plan for the building of the garage was a new plan created a new plan was not created perit have been issued you know and one of the issues I think that the board of appeals struggled with was you know did the Town come back and reinspect did they have to reapply you know essentially did they have to go and redo that but they had been issued the permit it was built and it was just never caught well they were issued the permit to build the garage in a different location than it was actually built right well the the permit itself said 90 ft it said 90 ft from the center of the

road so in between me talking to him and the the um contractor coming to get the permit somehow it got changed to 90 ft and that's what was on the permit now if you look at the permit you'll see that it said 90 you know I mean you've known me for a long time not going to sugarcoat it I mean you raised the issue and it's an issue that I'm concerned about is is is setting precedence and it seems like you understand that's a concern from the town since you raised it I why wouldn't this be setting precedent well because you're looking at the facts of this one particular case and you have the issue of a representation from a town official that they relied on and making the change but without hearing from the town official right well the only testimony we have is from um Terry and Eileen it was a former official here but it's evidence that we offer before you so I mean one of the issues was how much do

we have to litigate what the town did or shouldn't have done or um you know the point is they were told to do something and they did it and it turned out it was incorrect which is why we acknowledge that it is a violation and we sought the variant um there was no other violations it is a hardship to them it is a hardship to the others uh the issue is you know is it uh is it their fault well I mean again we're not asking you to cure it we're just saying you're not going to prosecute a future violation at this point right now

setting a precedent by doing this isn't there another option where you could do a swap of enough Land one of the issues with that is I don't think that uh the abutter is at all interested in that we'll have to have things resurveyed the purchaser um has had to pay a rate lock extension there tremendous cost to all of them they just don't have the money to do that um to sort of redraw the the boundaries of that I think you're talking several thousand dollars which nobody here seems to have hey you are back Joe um I have one

question that I think that um Mr first would probably be the one to answer but my other question is if a I know a Vari was not granted when a variance is granted that stays with the property and follows the property through transactions it's that's not something that goes away the variance is granted and it stays with the property and so I'm wondering if if we were to issue a

no action on this what that means for future implications to that question follows the proper right you're giv a variance for the [Music] in their file at that point record notion yeah I right I I wouldn't give legal advice that's but that would be my assumption of what would happen and so when we get to the point where we discuss that the discuss what we're going to do as a board can we just revisit that and how I would like for that to specifically State something when we get to get to that point Thank You y absolutely Joe a clarification question so I watched the meeting uh from last week the it's entirety and reviewed our documents that we received uh today and so thank you for that my understanding is that the supposed discussion between the town official took place in September of 2019 based off what was said last night and the looks like the permit was applied for in July of 2019 and then approved in early August of

2019 and the permit shows a sketch of it already being 90 feet back so the permit which was applied for prior to that application prior to the supposed conversation already indicated that it was going to be following what the supposed conversation then um required the permit's already showing a 90 foot set back from the center line and that was as of July I'm just establishing the time frame that in theory being told to move 90 ft back in September wouldn't have been new information I think the issue was around the moving of the driveway as he pointed out the drive and that then led to the garage location also um the contractor came down he came down and got the permit and I was told I had to come down and get a permit too and I had come down I'm not sure if it was September it could have been before then I'm not sure but um I talked to them they said you don't need a permit for the drive

driveway but you need to talk to the road commissioner so the first time I talked to him it could have been earlier I don't know and maybe I told the contract and maybe I did I'm I'm not sure how that took place right it seems like from the timeline that was vocalized last week yeah that the plan was already drawn in with 90 foot set back from the center line of the Road and a 50 foot set back from the back line of the property and 50 foot set back from that line of the property which is showing that the um sketch wasn't drawn to scale because that would require there to be a lot more distance from the road to the back line so I'm not necessarily sure if that conversation that could have taken place in September really has much validity when we look at the fact that the permit that was applied for in July in July

already stated that was a 90 foot set back from the road which isn't possible because of the lot shap is that's what I'm trying to establish yeah and I guess where I struggle is the extent to which I mean the town did act on that and approved it um the extent to which they bear responsibility for correcting that or for catching the town mistake or clarifying that the point was the the permit was issued and then we had U an

inter we had an interaction with the town we made a change did you did you make a change because based off of the sketch that was submitted in July the change that was vocalized supposedly from a town official wouldn't have caused this sketch to be changed at all because the sketch in July is showing a 90 foot setback and so if you're saying in September you're told you need a 90 foot setback it doesn't really matter if your sketch to submitted in July already shows him how put set back do you want to speak to that I don't I don't know how what what came I can't remember the date that I talked to him Ed to talking about moving a driveway versus the building there so yeah I'm focused on discussing the building not the driveway the building yeah well we was told it had to be 90 ft I what month it was um I talked to the road commissioner a couple of times and when the contractor that did the driveway

came down um the commissioner came down and he talked to him also and told him that to make sure that the driveway was close to the mailbox box which is the high end of the land and that it was 90 ft back right so I'm just saying that from my standpoint it's hard to establish um an accurate timeline for when a discussion from the member of Community member of the Town may or may not have happened and whether that impacted the sketch which we all admit is inaccurate to to begin with so um just wanted to clarify

that thank you Joe anybody else have any questions for Michael Terry did we have any other questions for any other member of peels chair so if not I'll move from here I have no no questions I would just say you know the town hasn't taken any enforcement action I'm not aware that town officials have had anything even awareness of this until a mortgage inspection raised it we've come affirmatively in front of the town trying to be forthcoming about this um mistakes were made um I think they were they were innocent ones on our P from our perspective U and so we're just asking for um a little bit of exercise in your discretion here so thanks for your time and for your consideration of all of this Mike I just I wanted to talk to my question was just for for Mr first yeah we GNA have Paul come up all right thank you thank you gentlemen

welcome is it okay Paul yeah go ahead so I'm reading through the transcript and I did oh yeah you want to say who you are sorry Paul first Chesley Hill Road I'm the acting chair of the appeals board thank you you for being here I did also watch um the appeals Board hearing and

um I just had a question the the transcript reads and Mr Malo also spoke to the fact that it says the strict application of the ordinance I'm looking at B1 um where and then uh the land in question canot yield a reasonable return unless a variance is granted and um it says the consensus of the board was that the property could not yield a reasonable turn return unless a variance is granted and so if if the board consensus was that they met that um criteria that they would not be able to receive a reasonable return I that's my only question is why the appeal wasn't Grant or the ADV variance wasn't granted on those grounds uh because they have to meet all four criteria okay I thought and so they met three of the four and there's actually a criteria before or Criterion before that but um they did meet that one so they it's really a total of five they met all they met four out of the five and then the last one

that they didn't meet you probably read can can I interrupt for one second absolutely is and maybe Mike you're better to answer this but does the board of appeals decision have anything to do with what's before this board tonight isn't that this is a different step it has nothing to do with your decision right is that I yeah there's no review of their decision yeah no I wasn't trying to do that Express support the end as you saw that hopefully this board would would do things a little differently outside of that analytical yeah you know I the the motion by the board was that this board consider the reques just to

clarify okay all right any further questions for Paul no I have a question for you Joe in order for to go into discussion on the consideration do we need to make a motion to accept or deny beforehand or make a motion or and then have a discussion afterwards yeah because I think that it would just be valuable here on to move into the discussion on the consideration recommendation I I if we have a short discussion on and then somebody make a motion based on that discussion that that is fine with me did anybody else need to talk you please please please come up to the microphone and introduce yourself please thank you ha listing broker representing the freees I just wanted to mention that I know that there was some discussion about worried about setting a precedent well if they're F that might solve that because I know that they're open to that okay just wanted to mention that to you thank as it's not a lot

thank you very what possible remedies are give everybody second here who wants anybody like to I I can start first if you'd like or did we make a motion I missed it if we did we did not make a motion I there was just a request to have a discussion request to have a discussion request to have a discussion second okay all um yeah I I mean to everybody in the room and to the town and and and to the board members yeah I am concerned about a precedent um you know we we the board has granted these no action letters before in the past not this particular board sitting here today um but other other boards have granted uh no action letters um it is in our ordinance and in our uh our ability to to Grant such a document um on on these

uh occasions that um that uh that it's needed um yes a fine is is certainly an appropriate action um that we should consider um in regards to um ensuring the precedent um um is uh addressed um you know across the town uh I'll say evenly um it is a fine that could go upwards of I read this correctly upwards of 5,000 as a maximum number um and um you know I

know that we have a recommendation uh for a lower number than that um that that was put in front of us earlier this week uh from our Council as a recommendation um so I I just say we let the conversation go from there and and and discuss how we want to uh basically assess a fine and then what that value might be um and what the justification for such is Joe yeah so to address the concerns of precedents um I think that it would be appropriate to discuss a fine um you know based off my review and based off of the uh recommendation and the vote from the appeals board it seems like the waters are a little muddied on as to where some responsibility lied with the original um permit application and it's likely that the garage couldn't have fit there improper um design done by the

contractor who submitted the sketch and the sketch clearly states it needs to be two scale and when you look at the sketch you can see that you know the 24x 24 Square building isn't even drawn to scale the property lines aren't drawn appropriately and there's improper setbacks drawn in so I think that there's clearly a violation and I'm usually in favor of issuing a fine when there is a violation to help avoid the Precedence of just my neighbor doesn't it's okay I can build it we're all hunky dory um so I'm in favor of issuing a no action letter so we can get some closure on this for the people who are trying to sell the home and the people who are trying to move into the home um you know buying a house is stressful adding in things like this is even more stressful so I think I'm a fan of going with that no issue no no that

letter but also assessing the fine so where we land on the fine I think would be up for discussion but I think we should kind of try to do tonight to bring this to an end quickly anybody else Josh I I would be in support of that as well I guess my my question is what is the appropriate

that and part of what my concerns were that I was asking about in the future is that my preference would be that in addition to the Fine the no action letter clearly states that the use doesn't change and that if there were a change of use that at that point the the no action would not follow

that all right so I'm G to step in for a second Joe so I did think about that a little bit because what I'm actually what what what bothered me while I was stacking two cords of wood this weekend was that we have affordable housing coming up and it's going to change it's going to change the landscape to a certain extent I'll use the word Loosely dra it'll change the landscape of Durham and some of these properties that we have which is what I am got myself very concerned with um will then be in front of the various boards appeals more than likely um to grant them them um ability to put a second I'll say a second residence or an apartment over the garage and that that that has bothered me um and um to the to the extent that I

was almost a hard no on this uh due to the distance to the um rear FL line um because it is in clear violation it is always the I'll say the responsibility of the owners I'll say for those setbacks for for maintaining their property lines and knowing where they are um but I I it has been something that I've been thinking about I don't know if we are allowed to put that type of language in there I have the same concern because with the discussions around the affordable housing and depending on how it goes this is a lot that could add accessory dwelling over the garage so if we issue a no enforcement in for the garage and whether the next owner or subsequent owner decides to turn that into an apartment over the garage now that's kind of getting a very different feel especially when we look back to the the ordinance and we talk about feel of neighborhood and character of neighborhood and stuff like that so I'm

just kind of have the same concern as you Joe is like is there an opportunity like Heather to say you know issue a no um no action but the on a change of no change of no change of use and I because the other have then if the

garage is added on to the front so now you have an even larger structure that is expanded upon that is is in non-compliance and stuff right I mean it's always been the rule of thumb that we do not make something more non-compliant than it actually already is just just by the basis of how the ordinances are written in in the rules of the town so it does become um an item

that would come up or possibly come up again with that Pro H I'm not a lawyer but I know we have some in the room and as a non- lawyer my understanding of a consent agreement is that it's something that both parties consent to and so this stipulation that I'm interested in adding for these reasons would be of consent of all of the parties involved and so I'll let the lawyers speak to whether or not that's appropriate um but that's that's where I'm at with this so it's funny I I was would have suggested have you not that we give all the parties an opportunity to talk because if there's going to be an objection to it then that might change our mind but if we're going to do it by an agreement and I don't know if that's something you've talked about but if you want a few minutes to talk about well I think there's two different one up yeah that' be great that' be easier then then they can hear you over the

microphone I think it's just important to be clear um my sense is that a consent agreement would be as if you were settling a lawsuit right now you're not filing one I see fair so wrong language but still I think for my perspective it's still would your clients agree because if if you're going to sit there and say we're not in agreement than um you know that might change some Minds here certainly I mean we're at I I think this is really more of a you're saying the conditions under which the town would not prosecute um so you know I think we can we can say whether or not that would allow us to get to a closing but I think essentially uh my understanding is that the title insurance company which is not me um would write the policy and the closing could happen as long as the town does not take any enforcement action against what is there today that's fair so I just I don't want to go beyond that

and and try to speak for them um right I'm not sure that we need a a really lengthy negotiated agreement on that I think you can set parameters on the conditions under which you would not enforce so I guess in my eyes it's more protecting your clients because if we put that condition on there are the buyers going to back out that's that's and that's something that somebody might want to have a conversation with them about before we do this exctly and that's that's what I would like to propose because if if they're going to back out then that may change our mind is saying we won't do this or you know what we're just going to deny it we're we're asking for the straight Bas test but then want that do I mean perhaps you might say what conditions you would say subject to approval by buyer and seller uh on signing a final letter you could set some parameters on what you would say and then we give us a chance to talk

to the title insurance company and to give you a a response that that's acceptable and the closing can happen because I'm not I mean from our perspective the closing can happen we're happy to sell it to them they can't buy with a letter of no action and just stating that there's no

but if it's changed in any way we reserve the right reserve the right that's not going to change the title of insurance companies mind no I I doubt that it would right so I mean my feeling is is I I'd like to a conversation to happen with a buyer saying is this acceptable and I don't want to I see somebody shaking their head over my shoulder but I don't want to I I want to give them the opportunity to talk to their broker and whatever and and to me

if they're okay with it I think it sounds like they there's a consensus here that that would be something that this board would be willing to do um but if if they're not then I think that changes it and you know if we can I'd rather not have lawsuits going and stuff if we can avoid it so if we can take a couple of minutes we can talk and and they're here and they can speak for themselves on that if you want to do that this evening okay yeah thank you go into recess break and talk no I mean we

we can just go ahead joshu you got to say something for us to discuss where we're landing on a fine while they're not in the room or should let's just let's just wait give them a minute we'll give him a minute let's get this resolved just to clarify so we're on the same page the discussion here is about um adding any condition that any sort of no action uh would be tied to not changing the use of the building it's not going to be turned into a business it's not going to be allowed be turned into secondary it would be a letter of no action as long as the the the garage is used in its current state as a garage only I mean I don't know if there's an Department above it or what what but then any any any change to that they reserve the right this town Reserve its right to enforce any violations should the use CH yeah and and it won't necessarily prevent them from having a like say a business in

their house or something like that you know that type of conditional use would still be approved yeah it it but it just would limit what you could do with the garage itself I understand I'm just making sure we say it yep appropriately the same okay if I may I have I have conferred with the buyers and they're here and they're going to speak for themselves come on up and introduce yourself thank you uh my name is Benjamin roach one of the two two buyers on the house um we don't intend to put an apartment or anything in that garage I'm a mechanic by trade and I intend to actually use the garage as a garage uh so we have no intention of putting anything else in there and this doesn't change your position in terms of buying no okay no we are doing everything we can to actually purchase this property okay so okay great thank you thank you very

discuss the F first or I was I figured my motion would be to um accept the recommendation of a no action letter with the condition that the the use of the garage cannot change um from its current use and to assess a fine for the current violation and I fig

we can discuss the fine during the discussion of the motion or do we need to do those separate separately because it is actually listed as separate items in the in the uh we can we can we can talk about the agreement and the word and is used and to what's that do we need to discuss the F first then right I me go ahead yes Josh I think they should be discussed it should be discussed as one entire vote because if you're if you're

going to say a $5,000 F and they're going to say well that's basically saying you're not going to give us the letter of no action you know I i' I'd like to discuss the F and and do it as one vote I think that's leer and more

my motion thank you Joe thank you Joe Jerry do you have a recommendation from the town's legal council on where a fine should be assessed the recommendation was it's at the board's discretion okay thank you so I I I'll make a recommendation that we um that we assess a fine at $22,000 um you know again we we've got the option to go up as far as five um for for any said violation like this um it's not Shoreland which is I believe 10 as a maximum um so um but I'm I'm

thinking $22,000 is both reasonable and uh a deterrent um to Future folks I know fines have been different um but um you know again um I think $2,000 probably a uh appropriate fee in this case further any discussion on that I'm sorry I missed that point of clarification was that a motion or just no I just just discussion point of discussion I'm thinking $2,000 as a as a logical number that's both a deterrent

and um you know again we have the option of going higher or lower but feel as though that's a this J my inclination is to not go with the maximum because as the legal representation pointed out the folks are here telling us about the problem this isn't something that was caught there seems to be some miscommunication whether it was through timelines or town staff or something along those lines so it doesn't feel like an extremely nefarious case to me which I think would be what we would reserve the maximum fine for so I'm just adva for something closer to what Joe has has brought up for a point of discussion do we have any examples recently of what these sorts of finds have have been because I know there's been examples of like buildings having to be removed or foundations having to be removed but do we know what our our precedence for fines are for something like this I I don't have any direct

knowledge of of what those settlements were for other fines um I do know that we did expend a fair amount of money um to um on the subject itself uh from the the little hours the town staff put in so um that that that number I believe Jerry did you end up Alan didn't finish what he was doing because we found out today CI that us had to go out we were in a pinch to get that out so that okay um do you think it's in line with pretty close I mean I because of the certified letter I'm trying to figure I spent most of my day on it plus I've had talks with our town attorney um

you know I probably have a day and a half Allan probably has a couple of days on this that you know that's always where my concern and my um my advocacy lies is that I'm always in a position where I don't want um the residents in a position where

assuming any of the costs to be able to deal with an outside um situation right so my my concern would be having the fine set at what it has cost the town to deal with this situation right and and then you and then you have the the addition of the deterrent that we need to add on top of that so I you also have the appeals they're volunteers years taking time to do this as well how do you add that out so it's no I I you know

so okay any further discussion on an amount or a change of the amount i' like to would you like to uh make another motion Joe do you what Josh I was what you thinking I was going to make a motion but go ahead go up to you so I I would make a motion that the town issue a letter of no action subject to the condition subject to reserving the to the town reserving its right to take action should the nature the use of the building change from what it is today and then in addition um the town with the condition of the $2,000 fine being assessed first sorry please the addition of a f of $2,000 be levied and that issuance of the the letter of no action um be stayed until the f is paid in full okay I definitely wasn't writing fast enough all right we're recording um second for discussion okay yeah any further discussion on this Heather um I

maybe I want to make a friendly amendment that the use what did it say the can I motion of no action as it today use um or Josh grad or say that again or what well I just wanted to be really clear that they that if there's any expansion of it that the town still reserves the right to okay

um accept a motion of no action with the current use of the garage or future [Music] and okay we add motion we add a second by Heather okay all in favor in the usual manner discussion any other any other discussion I wanted to make a brief point just so we have in terms of record another reason why I'm comfortable with the lower amount is that the U rather than the maximum is this is not a dwelling so I think that that makes a big difference this isn't like a second an occupied living space and that just want to note future discussions if that's part of my decision making for supporting something like this as opposed to if it was a structure that someone was living in um so just wanted that to be noted for the record thank you apprciate that okay uh all in favor in the usual manner all right that's a motion carries for o no [Music] opposed and the only thing that'll need to happen is Jerry will will generate a

letter um we'll have to sign sign it well once we receive the I was just going to say as soon as we receive the check we'll give you a signed letter okay thank you check outan credit union opens you can call no thank you very much and yeah so we'll get this taken care of and you want the check tonight yeah that that's feel free get you can write the check we can't write the letter tonight you'll have the check yeah so if you guys want to do that off to the side that that would be great and uh we appreciate it yeah no thank you and uh yeah welcome to yeah thank you thank you everybody and uh welcome to welcome to Durham hopefully everything else goes well this is the only wrinkle you always have to have something happen when you buy a house because they did such a thorough job we could they did a one they did a very good job very well it was yes I I

watched whole thing watch I don't even watch movies I watch that's the longest film I've watched all year yeah all right let's um Well everybody's doing their thing thank you very much everybody have a great evening and Merry Christmas yeah Merry Christmas all right we'll move on to give everybody one second to clear

feel free to thank youur it is give us your town manager report sir not a lot to report on this week um but the uh solid ways contract is ready to go will'll be mailed out this week with bids due December 21st um that is the existing cont so our existing contract is coming to an end and so this is and this is a opportunity to accept bids from whomever is interested yes okay and so that ends June 30th and we're hoping to how long is our bid period open for right now um it'll be close to 3 weeks so bids are due 300 p.m. on December 21st Thursday okay so it should go out the next couple days and so just for my understanding when you say that the the bit it's open are how how are we how do we advertise that for Derm do we send it out to we send it to and then I put it on the M website cool and the town website yeah and town website yep I I do know a local person who's interested in bidding so

that's good information that it's going to go on the town website also a local person okay who is it so just I just need a address I send it to him um the rubbish doctor he's expressed interest heard of this person so you can get that to him afterwards great thank you I had a I had two questions I think for Jerry if that's okay was your question done Joe yes um different subject or the same subject no a different subject do you have anything more on your no that's all I that's all you have okay such short great all right no that's fine yeah go ahead I and this may have already happened but if it didn't happen already thought we can discuss it or if this is just something that everyone's in agreement with um I thought it would be great the resolution that we signed if that could go um on the Conservation Commission Section of the website for people to see or and maybe that could get included in like the news

blast or something that goes feel like they I you know I just think when we do stuff like that that it's important to like let the residents know that we've done that kind of thing put on website and what else maybe in the news blast um

then last week I think it was last week we talked about meeting spaces and you're going to come to us with ideas proposal years to go to the fire station unless you folks have another idea I don't have anything else for you I was I was just wondering if it

I wanted to make sure that you weren't waiting for me to get contact information for the school no I'm not you're not you don't want to entertain I don't want to bring the town's issues to the school okay I think that's our issue not not the schools so I but that's but that's up to you folks I mean you can say Jerry go to the school well go to the school I'm inclined to defer to your judgment this stuff here you know I just you know I think the board I think this the town has to have its own meeting space and Ono I was think my my suggestion for the school is in is in the interim versus going to the fire station yeah but if again but the fire station but the fire St the planning the the public hearing on the work great yeah so I don't I don't both

the chief and I were're we don't know why it's such a yeah I I think for now you've got a plan let's go with that plan and then we can discuss this at a at a future meeting for for you know a bigger plan on what we do okay I just wanted to make it doesn't need to be resolved right no I just wanted to make sure that you weren't waiting for me for contact to contact them if you hadn't but thank you my two questions for Jerry right okay uh consent agenda like to move to the consent agenda uh accept the town meeting minutes uh from November 14th uh approve

and sign the payroll warrant so there's three different minutes here because we didn't approve so you've got meeting minutes for 11:14 1024 and 1010 y i I've read them all I'm fine with them um I make a motion to accept the exent agenda and the meeting minutes as presented Second Joe seconds

all in favor okay that's unanimous consent agenda passes and is approved okay board member Jerry I'll let you introduce it your idea let me introduced well right so it's common that in a in these select board meetings Council meetings at the end of the meeting that the board members get to report out

on anything that they're hearing from their constituents I know Josh you had brought something up about the patrol on so it just kind of gives every you a chance to just report out just like the staff does the select board members can report out as well what they what they've been hearing so rather than items for the next agenda maybe that's an opportunity to say gez this is what I'm hearing should we talk about this at another agenda or more times than not um in the last

municipalities I work at they did that and the council members would say nothing to report at this time but if they had something they would they would say it was short it was quick it wasn't discussed it was just something that they would bring up and maybe we would talk about it at another point or something like that so it's just an opportunity for the elected officials to to do a report just like staff does or just like I do every meeting Y and you may not have something or you may so um that's so you typically how it happens the chair goes around the room and says you know select

something they have something if they don't they don't it gives an opportunity for them to speak on something outside of what was on the business I like the idea we can we can see how this goes Heather um I've been approached about

two different subjects one I addressed with the chief or with Calvin and then chief addressed it um the safety concerns around access to that lot near that intersection um we have multiple car accidents and there's been multiple fatalities at that intersection and while I think that everybody's hearts are in the right place I do have some safety concerns around that and I have been approached about that also the other thing that um I've recently been approached about was the way um a staff

member was treated at the public hearing for the land use ordinance changes um and so that's definitely something that as a board I would like to discuss if if we want to wait for Rich to get back yeah we'll save that one because that I I I know that did come up in another Forum so yeah let's let's wait for the next meeting to discuss that in the executive session okay okay but it is a but that's the kind of stuff that I think we want to bring up here either something to spark your interest that Sparks the interest of board um you know we're trying not to talk about it here at that moment but but just to get the subject out there give everybody an opportunity to speak um and keep it short Joe you I was gonna say I really like this idea of adding in the board member reports um just I think sometimes there's value in just being able to in a public setting say hey just so you all know hear something I heard or saw you

know here's the 10 compliments I heard people give the select board last week you know um those sorts of things so I think that that's a good idea and then at this same point time um bring up ideas that we want to talk I just do think it will be important for us to acknowledge that this is the point to like make a statement and not necessarily get in the weeds of a discussion and I feel like sometimes as a board we all are guilty of kind of getting excited about a topic that we bring up and Diving right in so I think that we'll just want to make sure that we like book in that I'm guilty of it as much as the of are so I just think that that's an important consideration here so maybe in our um policy discussion

somewhere there might be about the board member reports and and what they entail um you know I also just one part of the reason I want to make sure that we have that kind of built in there too is so it doesn't feel like people are like oh that's where the board will discuss things they don't want to put on the agenda and let us know come up you know so that is really just delineated so people know that this sort so I think we're all in agreement but I just again want to make it public that that's kind of my thoughts on right thank you Joe Josh so thank you I appreciate you putting this up there because I know it was a comment by me uh that that led to

this he wasn't going to call you uh and so I think what I raised with you and I believe Joe uh was the county uh has decided to dedicate a patrol to Route four um I believe it's just in Livermore Turner Livermore Livermore Falls area I don't believe it extends into Auburn but one of the issues that we've had historically is uh response times in

Durham um and the growing population the growing traffic on our roads I know based on a conversation I had with law enforcement recently uh that they've stopped people going 90 plus miles an hour on 136 um and it's not a oneoff thing it happens quite often and so I don't know

I I was trying to but I haven't had the the the ability yet to um see what exactly it was that they voted on for that Patrol whether it's a you know during rush hour all day uh you know morning and afternoon and not overnight but what I'm hoping is is that we as a t as a board can

um use that as sort of Leverage to get the sheriff to try to have a more and they've done better um I will admit I've seen them well it's been a while but I had seen them a little bit more recently than I had in the past uh but to to commit more um more time to patrolling the town of

Durham um and uh I know that uh that that that's going to have a faster response time for those communities and and I and and the other communities that the sheriff's department um covers and I know that germ is unique because we're the only ones on this side uh of Lewis and Auburn Poland uh who all have you know who have Poland has its own dedicated uh Deputy paid for by by the citizens this is the only dedicated um position in the sheriff's department that's going to be dedicated to a certain stretch of three towns and ignore the the rest of the the county which well I have my own opinions on about about that but uh I'm hoping that we can

as a board at a future meeting address um um using this to have the sheriff commit more patrols to the town of Durham um I know that uh the the sheriff's department and their command know about what's going on traffic wise crime wise in the town of Durham um we've had that discussion it was within the past month um and so I I know they're cognizant of the issue um whether they're going to do something is another story and so I'm hoping we can use this as as a way to get that going because I don't think it's feasible for us to pay for our own Deputy but I think since we're paying and we're now paying for this Deputy that's going to patrol J rout 4 when we have 136 125 MH Route

9 um all of which you know maybe don't have the same number of uh serious accidents but same drivers driving crazy I think I think we deserve something out of this since we're paying for it yeah think that's a good subject to bring up at a future meeting Josh when that when that item goes on the agenda for at a future meeting I would just like to see how it read that they did that so I

don't know if it would like they they the County Commissioners approved and I I'm not sure if I'm assuming by now the budget commission is position a dedicated Patrol position for Route four and was that under pressure from those towns collectively that that's what I'd like to see is how how that came to fruition I I do want to do a point of order this feels a little more into the weeds discussion yeah so that's what I was at is that when that gets on the agenda that's documentation that I would like to see with it I think that that good to discuss when that comes up just to I I have plenty of things I want to say about this but I'm trying to yeah let's let's let's I mean it's a good subject let's let's put in the future I agree we'll need bunch of information to go with discuss this further that needs to be collected so we'll have to figure out how to get that okay and so I just want to add one thing in terms of

traffic discussion um an observation that I had so I'm M public bringing it to select word member Joe to share here um is some concerns about having at some point discussion about concerns about people running the um automated lights at on 125 where the bridge is being replaced especially with the winter time coming because the vehicle in front of me had a pretty close head-on call coming down the hill with someone who ran that light and just exploring options to have that operated by a person or something like that during high traffic times because once the winter time comes that person was able to hit the brakes and not have a head-on collision the other person was able to back down right in front of me but it was it was a close call so main do actually made a post about this yeah so again I just wasn't sure if it was something we could have Calvin explore or talk about it a later date but I just

want to say that I've seen a lot of complaints about that and heard a lot of complaints about that just wanted to share that okay all right that's it's my trash can to all right we got to move on let's see uh upcoming meetings in town news CIP committee meeting is on 11:30 so that's this week and a couple days here on Thursday night um 6: p.m. at the Town Office selectboard meeting on 1212 and 1226 6:30 at the town office and planning board meeting um uh 126 um in

uh at 6:30 p.m. in the town office couple questions about the upcoming meetings um I know planning board meeting and select board were obviously live streaming is CIP also live streamed or is that recorded later it's recorded that's recorded and posted later and I just had a I don't know if this is an appropriate time but just for our 1226 meeting I know we had a discussion about possibly talking about an or we we we will probably just move that to January and that way we don't interfere with the 1226 no I realize 1226 might be hard for some yeah isn't there a ordinance solar ordinance meeting that's coming up isn't that tomorrow I I don't know 12 12 okay and they are meeting

tomor regular meeting the committee but the public hearing is on the seventh okay thank you sorry all right that is it for meetings uh coming up and any reason to have an executive session Jerry no no right but I just want to be so the 26th is that definitely out no it's a it's a scheduled meeting right now and we'll later on we'll decide whether we're just coming in to sign some paperwork for you or having a a discussion about something else but right now that's a set meeting on the schedule we'll leave it there for now believe I heard that that we would have a quorum for that to be able to sign paperwork so I do have one question

sorry to add extra little question but so I sit as a normal member on the um the Conservation Commission when I joined the this board I stepped down as chair and I made sure to do my best to kind of distance myself from some of the things that might end up becoming recommendations to the select board but in the past at public meetings I have kind of been like the face and the mouth for the um uh the Conservation Commission and I can I can imagine that tomorrow at that meeting they might ask me to kind of lead some of that stuff and I wanted to judge this select board's feelings on on me speaking as a as a public member and as a Conservation Commission member there um and I don't want it to be in any way shape or form seem like I'm a select board member so I just wanted to judge you all's opinion on on my participation there yeah I think you just need to make sure that you don't represent the select board in

your in your I'm going to address the elephant in the room and say I'm here as a Conservation Commission member but I just want to make sure that this body was comfortable it's okay with being a select board member and being on these committees um you know even as chair I mean of course being the chair is a little different because you might have to come before the select board which doesn't work very well right that that kind of makes sense so there's nothing wrong with being a Committee Member and being a participant as a citizen and a Committee Member in those committees um and again you're it helps because you you know I'll say you have a Viewpoint as a select board member as well as a citizen as and as well as a committee a know a knowledgeable Committee Member so when you're when you're when you're talking about something um you you can at least in your own mind think about how the say

the select board is going to react to something even though you may go the opposite way in that meeting you know and I say the opposite way you may go you know down a road that brings you to a logical conclusion that might not be the same as the rest of the select board later which is which is okay I 100% understand that but I just wanted to get ahead of it because I have seen at some other public meetings where a member from the public has like questioned a SBO member tending ask question and that's f fine so I just want to get ahead of it and and bring up here that there is a chance that I might be asked to do some of the heavy lifting during the explanation process in that 127 meeting and I wanted to make sure that the board was comfortable with knowing that I would extremely upfront delate that I'm not representing the select board as part of that and I just wanted to make that clear so there doesn't seem

to be any sort of maluses so just more of a courtesy here and just making sure that it's okay with everyone so it's definitely okay with me I think that so articulate about so many of those issues I think it's an asset to the voters and to the residents to have someone who is knowledgeable articulate you know that that is your line of work and that you clear you're a very clear communicator and and I think that that's an asset when people are in situations where they need information to be able to vote and so as long as which I know you will say

that you know you're there as an individual and not representing the board point of view I'm I'm happy to have you there okay anything further otherwise uh no executive session do I have a motion to adjourn we adjourn Joe motions to adjourn have the seconds all in favor we are adjourned motion carries thank you all very

to be the shortest meeting of the last four did it went to went to Kimberly she just cashed