TranscriptFebruary 18, 2021 ~ Historic District Commission Meeting

United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay. and so acceptance of the minutes. We need a motion. Stop. I'll make the motion.

Second. I'll second it. Okay. So, all those in favor of accepting the minutes I Okay. All right. Information exchange. Couple things. Um, I think I had told you last time that um, finally getting to work with Tammy actually to get all of the information from the structure survey into a database. We were supposed to meet tomorrow morning, but because of the snow, we're not going to. We'll meet one day next week. And so that'll that'll be, you know, shortly. That'll all be in a database. Um, and um,

think we're going to have to face with the survey business is that obviously when when we did it, we just went out and surveyed all the homes, whatnot, structures 1920 and prior. Um, and it suggested to us that one thing we might want to do down the road is to um take a look at that

big long list and actually um callull out the things that are really historically significant in town. So, that's something we'll be talking about down the road. Okay. Um the Union Church Committee, there's no action on that yet. and the town manager interview. I did ask Ruth about, you know, one of us being on and she said Kevin Neto had to make that decision and I've tried to call him and he hasn't gotten back to me. I'll keep trying to do that. And

Andy, did you put your name in for that? No. Did you fill the paperwork out for that? No. I did. Oh, okay. Good. But they have not answered me. They were supposed to have answered, I thought, last Friday. Okay. H, but that may mean I'm not on it.

You're on the list to be considered or or I sent in the paperwork to be considered to be on the the they have a is it a committee a citizens portion of the town manager review. Oh, okay. Well, at the very least, I mean, I'll keep trying, Kevin, but at the very least, one of the things, hopefully that'll, you know, that'll go through with you, Lois, but um one of the things we might want to think about if none of us are on the interview team is developing a few questions that could be asked about, you know, the concern about history and the town and whatnot.

Okay, continuing business. You want to look at the third bullet, the coordination with the planning board and codes officers. That was the one we said we might try to do a little something about. Well, I had a conversation with George Sabarge, the town planner, about all of that, about that. And um he was very helpful

actually. and um he is going to um write a report on that and get it to us because he he said that there needed to be some research first about what other towns are doing, what the state might say, and then the three groups or the codes officer and somebody from the planning board and and um commission could meet.

But so he's um looking into to all of that. Okay. And he was very helpful. I think we may want to talk to him about a few other things too. He was very helpful. Um yeah because he he also when we were talking he asked about the survey and um he said that in the comp plan and I guess this comes from the state actually um that the the places that they identify in town right now that are of historic significance are one is the Eureka Graange the friends meeting house

old Chandler mill. I'm not sure what that is. I've heard of it before, but I don't know what it is. The Cattle Pound, Dyer's Ferry, which is down at the end of Ferry Road, Garish Mill, and the Samuel Robinson House. I'm not positive, but I think the Samuel Robinson house is where um

you probably don't know, but where the Sturms used to live, it's a cape. If you if you're at the Union Church and you looked across the street, the house to the right is where they used to I'm pretty sure that's the Samuel Robinson house. Why that's identified I don't have a clue but those were the ones

I think I remember someone saying I think I think I remember someone saying that he his maybe his daughter or somebody was an opera singer I can't remember something like she was kind of famous I think somebody one of the houses is famous because the daughter was you know opera singer or something like that

yeah there is that but I don't know whether it was that one but I know Tia Oh, all right. He had talked about a famous opera singer from here in town. Anyway, um so as I said, you know, he was very helpful. He's going to look into the whole planning board, commission, codes officer, permit review, and all of that. um after he talked to me, he was going to talk to the state and he's going to get us a report about what we should be looking at and then we'll meet and see what we have to do.

Sounds good. Okay. I don't think tonight's meeting is going to be real real long anyway. Um here here are the the other two bullets there were the other ones that were shortterm for us. the advise and assist property owners about tax credits and the survey of historical and archaeological resources. And I'll just give you a little bit of input on those. I have well tried um supposedly there two two places where you can get some archaeological resource information. One is the Greater Portland Council of Governments and they have not been helpful at all. They wrote part of the comp plan for the town, but and and

also the Department of Transportation apparently you can talk to if they found things, you know, when they put in roads and stuff like that. And that person, his name is Rob Bence, I think is his name. And he was going to look into it and get back to me and he hasn't yet. So, you might find something out there. Um, but they're also, and I haven't talked to them, there's also somebody they identify at the state who is um a person to talk to about

archaeological resources. Um, and I haven't talked to that person yet. Anyway, um and the business of the advise and assist property owners about tax credits. Um, I don't know whether anybody else watched it, but Lois and I watched the webinar that this this

Main Historic Preservation Commission put out about um, n the National Historic Register, about how it works, eligibility, what you have to go through, all of that kind of stuff. And um also um one of the people at the state, I think it was Mike Johnson sent to us and I I had forwarded to you. He sent two things. One was a brochure that the state has about the National Historic Register and the other was a list of consultants because they suggest that anybody who wants to look into that needs to a consultant or professional that uh it's very complicated that we really wouldn't be the people to help with that or do that. Um,

so those were those two that's about where we are with those. Um and um just just to put it out there, the other the those were all shortterm and midterm on the on the comp plan are um developing long range plans for um the Union church and the Methodist church. Well, that's kind of, you know, underway. They're supposed to form a committee and things. nothing we should be doing about that right now. and um other than trying to get somebody on the committee um and contacting owners of National Register properties or eligible people um about oh obtaining

preservation projects and whatnot. not um you know something just went through my head when I looked at this since it says um anyway um doing anything more about um any of the things that have been assigned to us. The only thing I was thinking about is that the business of

um tax credits and whatnot. Well, um that I don't know. What do you think about putting something together that people in town could could look at? I mean, if we were able to put a link to that webinar, we'd have to ask them, obviously, and put the brochure out there, the consultants and funding sources. I mean, we could put information out there, then put it on the town website. Um, I don't know. What do you think about doing something like that?

Yeah. No, I think that sounds good. Um I think you know it uh I think we we've discussed this at several meetings that the scope of actually uh advising and assisting homeowners is way beyond right um but providing you know uh references to

you know tools and and other resources that might exist sounds totally like right attempt to try to you know assist people in this way. The other thing the coloring when uh back at the first thing that you mentioned survey.

Yeah. Um maybe what might be uh you know another step would be providing sort of a blanket um notice on you know the news site on the website. But maybe when we identify houses that we think are of historic significance, mailing them a letter and just letting them know that we have um for the purposes of, you know, the work we do identified their house as having um some and and and I think we're going to have to really sit down and hammer out things like historical significance, like what do we mean by that? um coming up with a definition and then coming up with a list that meets the definition. But I think letting families that own those homes know that for whatever reason and we define that reason uh their houses uh you know we recognize it has the potential for historical significance. And then in the letter, you know, just reinstating the same resources. So

we can say we've done it in two ways is basically what I'm Well, the only my only I hear what you're saying and I agree. I mean, one of the things I don't know, well, I would not put want to put us in the position of looking at every old house and us deciding whether it's eligible for the National Historic Register. But if we're talking about significance to the history in town, um I there are people we could talk to, um Tia being one of them who knows an awful lot about um you know what what we might want to say. I know I think Seth Koig told us I don't know whether it was his aunt's house, but there's a house that was on the Underground Railroad.

Yeah, it's the it's the it's a federal that federal on 125. It's uh I think that's his aunt. Yeah. Well, I don't think it is anymore. It was his kid. It was his aunt's house. Okay. Um the other But we see that's the there's I guess that makes me wonder. Um here we have a story, you know, how

far do we corroborate that story? Like do we verify that in some way? You know, I mean, uh, the other thing, too, is, you know, I I looked at a lot of old houses when I was thinking about buying them, and from the outside, you could see that they were antique and that they fit into a certain period, and when you got inside, everything from that period had been completely stripped away, and it was gone. So, to say the externals of a house, and that would be what we would be making mainly our decision on if we're looking at historical structural significance. um might not be reflected in, you know, there might not be anything of historic value inside the house, right?

I guess while I think really kind of hammering out what that looks like and what we're going to and and the other thing too is, you know, here's a here's a what are we going to do with that list? Do we tell the homeowners? And if we s if we do or we you know I don't want to I don't want to say to somebody oh man your house is historically significant and then they pursue this and find out you know it's a dead end and then them I don't I mean there's always going to be that risk but I just guess I do think it's exciting to do that. I think it's worth doing. I think that list that we handed into the on the comp plan, I did not feel good about because it was just it was a handme-down list that has just been constantly submitted with every single one of these comp plans and it really hasn't been verified or vetted in any way. And I felt like we, you know, uh, we might want to do something like that just to produce a

list for ourselves so that when the next comp plan comes, we're able to provide them with you maybe even photographs of the house or the site, whatever. Um, and and kind of verify some of that information. I I remember trying to verify some of them and it was the identification numbers and things you know they've lost their meaning. It didn't have it was very difficult to find these places and verify them and I think that's the reason we kept them on the list. We tried to use uh the stack pole book I

think and isn't it possible to find out from through the tax list that when the buildings were built? Yeah. so that we could categorize them in, you know, the like from 1790 to 1820 or whatever and block them off because I know when we talked to main historic preservation, they were saying we should go back 50 years.

50 years takes us to 1970. That's going to be a whole lot of houses in town if we go back 50 years. If we could block them off and find the ones that were built first, make that list then with some time find the next cluster and then the next and then the next. I mean the tax the tax roles must have the the year they do when we did.

Here's the problem with the Yeah. The problem with the tax role is twofold. Number one, the the uh the town of Durham switched counties. Um, right. Right. 1850 or something like that. Right. Right. And so what end up winded up happening was some of that information that went from, you know, the local town, the tax roles got mistransated somehow. And you've got a bunch of properties that are showing up as, you know, 1860,

1870. There's no 1871. There's no 1873. And so there's questions about, you know, uh when was that house actually built and and that, you know, that was kind of a problem when we were doing the inventory. Um but if you do it by the decade, it doesn't make any difference. You know, if you say which which houses in town are built between 1820 and 1830 or 1830 and 1840, it doesn't make any difference whether or not what is there is accurate. I mean, then then we at least have something to work from. And maybe you already have that.

We do have we do have the survey does have everything broken down based on information from the tax ro. So we do have you know what information was on the tax roles and and and then whatever information we could get from families because some people knew stuff about the house that was different like what somebody we one of the houses was moved. Um, so it shows up on the Durham tax roll in 18, you know, I'm making up numbers here, 1870, but it was really built much earlier than that in a different town. You know what I mean? So like that, which is kind of neat. All right, go ahead.

well, but yeah. No, I think it's I think it's a I think that kind of thing is the kind of thing we should be doing. I think that's kind of what you know um I that's the kind of thing I think that uh the that no one else is doing. I mean the historic society does know a lot about the history but talking about um historical sites, historical houses is something that is our you know expertise. So be I think it'd be worth investigating how we could do something like that because I think that would be adding to um the uh the town knowledge

about you know the historic places. think that's a good thing to do um you know in in light of the you know advice and assist town people um comp plan requirement. Well Lois, can you take over the minutes for a minute? I have to

Sure can. I have to. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Oh. Um, Okay. Well, um, I think probably there in terms of the survey business, two things go through my mind. One would in terms of talking about significance and whatnot. one um

would actually be something historically significant and the other probably is structurally s significant because that's one of the things that you know state looks at or there some houses that where you know the structure of it is really good in terms of different kinds. Um but that's probably something we ought to think about doing after everything gets in the database so that we have it. Is that

Oh, right. Yes. That makes that job easier. Yep. Yeah. And then, um, as far as just kind of trying to begin putting together some information to put out there about, um, property owners and tax credits. Um, I'm not even sure exact didn't know just exactly what the next step would be. Um,

anybody willing to kind of work together to look at what we've got and and I don't know, it'd be a lot easier to sit down and do it, but to do it over Zoom. Um, you mean come up with something to put into the website? Is that what you mean?

Yeah. Right. Um, here's a question. Yeah. Who's who's in charge of sort of overseeing the uh the roll out of the comp plan? Like who checks to see what I can't answer that Paige. Do you know? Sorry, what what was the question?

Who who sort of is in charge of oversight with regard to the comp plan? like who who would be checking in with the various committees in in town to deci to figure out whether or not they're you know they're carrying out their the things on the comp plan.

It's a good question. I don't think anyone like I mean it's it's honestly just like a vision statement for the the community. That's kind of my understanding too. So, so the things that are in like the historical part of it are things that we we brought to the comp plan that we listed out that were important to us. So, it's up to us to to do them if that you know if that's what

All right. Because my I guess in a way because the way it's written is something that we really can't do. Um, right. And if there's nobody that we're going to have to sort of defend what we decide to do to, I guess in a way we need to write up sort of a rationale

for what what we do if it doesn't exactly match the expectation in the comp plan. Do you see what I'm so that future people and the next comp plan know why we did what we did and you know what the limitations were in executing that particular um

I'm gonna be honest. I think that's just kind of a waste of time. I don't think anyone's going to really care. All right. Well, I just besid besides us, you know, you'd know. I mean, I don't know, right? I did. There's just not nobody's gonna like when the next comprehensive plan committee is formed, they're not going to go back and like mark us that we failed or anything.

I don't I don't mean it like that. Why I'm saying that is I don't I don't want I don't want somebody else to be looking at this comp plan and not see um and not see our doing ad advising and assisting homeowners in seeking out tax credits and just seeing that as something that never got realized and then putting it in the next comp plan. That's that's the only I'm not I'm just trying to save somebody else in the future HDC committee from having to to

have doing the same thing over. You know what I mean? Like I think some because that we've been hung up on this that it'd be something Candy when you talk to George next to bring it up because he's the one that wrote it. He's the one that did all the technical writing for it. And so you might we could just specify or just ask him exactly what he meant because he might have

he might know that this is all all we meant to say is put links on the website. We didn't mean you know. Okay. You know. Yeah. Let me ask a question. Did most of the stuff that's in the the architectural and historical um resources in the comp plan. Did George the barge do most of that? Um, some of Yeah. Yes. So, there's like

That's what I thought. Each section of the comp plan you you have to fill out um it's like, you know, it goes for every town. So, every town has to say this is what they're going to be doing for archae archaeological resources.

So, you you have to fill um sort of like a there's like a baseline of what you have to put in there. Um, and so he I'm sure some of it is copied and pasted from other towns of what they put in their comp plan, but there's nobody's like the selectman clearly don't care what we're doing. Like it's not something they're going to be.

No. And I and my and my you know, my reason for bringing it up was just I don't want someone down the road um thinking that's a realistic goal. We've discovered it is not. Yeah, that's all. If we have it in our minutes and if our minutes are posted someplace by the town and if they are then archived, we have a record without having to make another record.

Right. Go ahead. Okay. But I guess my question is then um you're not you're not a member of the HTC. Get that dog out of here. looked like he was gonna he was gonna go to the bathroom in the house. So, we're getting him out.

Oh. Um do do um we'll continue when we get that report from George with likely meeting with um the planning board and the codes officer. So that'll move forward after we get the report from him. Um, do you what do you all think about the idea of trying to put something together about um tax credits for National Historic Register places, you know, not that we would do anything except post it online and uh on the website and you know, do

you think we should move forward on that or no? Or do I don't know. What do you think? But I I I I think Why don't we wait and talk to George and just kind of clarify what he you know what he thinks? Okay. Because why do that? I I just I want to be helpful and you know to people and uh if he had something in mind maybe you know uh you can tell them that's what you were thinking and we can just figure it out from there.

You know something else? Okay. I will bring up that this was one of the things that I I'm pretty sure the the commission the commission did bring up as a point they wanted to help homeowners save money with their historic you know this was something that we did bring to the comprehensive plan. It wasn't it wasn't like something out of thin air that he just thought up of I you know these are all things that were ideas that came from the commission.

but then the main historic preservation group said that we don't have the expert in their presentation that they did, they said we didn't have the expertise to be able to answer those questions, right? The the people who asked the questions the list of consultants. So, I thought that's why Candi was asking, should we just post that list of consultants and say, you know what, if you have a question about tax credits, here are 15 names of people you could contact. And that's all it is. It's not like I mean that's all we have that you can just check it off the list like here's here's the list of people that can help you. Here are the resources. There's no reason like I I don't think anyone would ever expect the commission to be able to advise anyone on their tax stuff anyways. like,

you know, I think that's if I think if you post the links on the website of PE resources, you just check that off the the list. I think we're thinking too far into it. I agree. Yeah, that sounds good. Do we want to move forward on that or people were saying let's wait and talk to George first?

Oh, I mean if that's what you think I mean I'm all I'm I want to push the easy button. Whatever works, you know, is easy. Sounds good to me. Well, Candy, you were asking if anybody wanted to work with you on that. I'll help. I'll I'll go I'll do that with you. We can we can check and see with George what he recommends and then

go from there. Go from there. Yeah. Yeah. Because we said it, you know, posting something on um the town website, it could include a link to that webinar. it it needs some you know statement about the whole thing but a link to the webinar and the brochure and the list of consultants and also I think it's Mike Johnson or Mike Global Baines one of them at the state is the person they can talk to at the state and you know and we put that out there for people to use themselves and we don't advise anybody

right I think advise is the word that shouldn't have been put in there Right. Yes. Well, because the other thing is that um you know like that piece that is in the next for doing in midterm contacting owners of listed properties and those eligible. I don't want to go around town deciding who might be eligible for the National Historic Register. That's kind of nuts.

Well, it's but but it's also way outside of our, you know, our own expertise. I have no idea who's eligible. That would be that that I don't know how that got in there. I would I don't I don't that seems George. Yeah, that's outside the scope of, you know, um

right to do, right? work on that to bring it back to folks. And um well that that's about it. Um I think the thing on the um on the agenda about letter to selectman I guess kind of from our conversation I think I kind of heard people say we really don't don't need to to do that. um whether because I was thinking you know we the idea of letting them know that hey we're working on things but not as quickly as some of the dates kind of thing but if nobody's even looking we don't need to do that I assume

yeah yeah I think yeah that sounds good work yeah so Candy in the report that you submitted to did you submit something for the town report? Uh, yes. I thought so. I I vaguely remember reading it. I just don't remember what it says. And I

I don't remember either. I'd have to go back and look. So, good. I'm glad maybe none of us remembers what that's probably a good thing. I don't know. But I mean, surely it gives an outline of what what we've done this year, right? So, you and then that's another public report. It goes in the town report. So, yes, you know, we should be good.

Okay. without writing a letter. I'm saying without writing a letter to the selective. All they have to do is read their own job reports, right? And I, you know, to be to be honest that I well, it's important to make sure,

you know, we're kind of trying to open up communication with them. Uh, not if, you know, not needlessly, like not, you know, if it's not required. Um, I don't think that's uh that's important. And it just, you know, they're busy too filling them up from us if they're not relevant. Doesn't it make sense,

right? anybody have anything else? Well, uh I uh the reason we have an annual town meeting, by the way, yeah, is uh Governor Andros who came from England, he was getting besieged with colonist complaints. So he decided to have he decided to have a town meeting once a year

where they could lodge all of their complaints at once and it kind of kept him from having to deal with them um on an ongoing basis. So that's kind of a neat little factoid I found out uh when teaching a class and teaching. But

ah so I just throw that out there. So that was about how long ago? 1600s. Oh wow. Yeah. He was like the third he came over in like the third wave. Um sent by you know George one of the Georgees. not George III, that was a revolutionary war guy, but and um he got sent here and uh

he's he made all the treaties with the Arakqua and all the Native Americans along the western border, too. His his territory just kept on going. I mean, it was like into New York and, you know, um and then down in um New Jersey and

Wow. you know, as those colonies got added, his territory was expanding. So, um, he came up here and he was up here for a winter and the all these colonists were complaining all over the place. He's just like, "Wait a second. Once a year and that's it." Because he had to be at all those meetings, you know. So,

that's right. What class are you teaching? Um, I'm teaching these these kids um the Middle Ages and now we're getting into like the Renaissance and we're getting into um What kids? What kids? Homeschoolers. Oh, okay. Okay.

And uh and so uh we're moving into like, you know, the the Middle Ages ended at different times in different places and colonization and exploration sort of happened earlier in other places. And so just talking about the Magna Carta and you know looking at contracts and treaties and junk like that is how I you know found out about that.

Is is that mill in Brunswick is that the Andros Mill? Yes. It's named after this guy. Yeah. Okay. He he built a bunch of forts too. That was another thing he did. He built a bunch of forts uh because it was uh it was pretty dangerous up here, you know, for colonists. They were getting uh they were they were getting attacked a lot, you know, and um Oh, that was kind of

anything else? No. No. Oh, I I do have one. I have a question. What about Anita? Is she still on the committee? Yes. Okay. Because it's hard you you came on a little late. Paula Perie is not feeling well. That's why she wasn't here. And Anita's sto um furnace went out and somebody was coming tonight to fix their

Oh, no. Okay. She was going to come over here to my house, you know, because she doesn't have a computer. Yeah, she can come to my house the next time because I have this laptop and she can sit right at my kitchen table with me.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's definitely still on it. And Paula and Linda Lichfield. And I'm not sure what happened to her tonight. She said she was coming. And after the town meeting, um, we can ask two more people to be on it.

Oh, great. Good. Yeah. Good. So, I have a question, Katie. You and I talked the other day on the phone and I mentioned about this the what the restrictions are for having a tiny house in the historic district. Did you happen to follow up on that at all?

I did. I did. Okay. The the little shed that the house directly across the street from me, they didn't they did not move that from the house next door. They built it. I misunderstood that then. And um Linda is working with them to do the paperwork to bring it to us. But behind the house, and you can't see it from the road, there's a tiny little building. and they're they're because we can't see it, it doesn't matter as far as we're concerned, but they're trying to turn it into a tiny house because they're about to have a baby and with all the COVID stuff, they want to be able to let their parents stay someplace and not in the middle of everything with a new baby kind of thing. But yeah, it's behind the house. You can't see it. I forgot all about it even being there.

Yeah. So if something's not visible from the road, we then it's not considered part of the district technically. Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Thank you for following up with her on that. I just I when Jan came over and brought them over to look at your old one page, they came over to look Jan brought the these people over to look at the tiny house I bought from you. Um and he said that they were redoing something in the com in the historical district and I was like, uh

oh. Yeah, Okay, good. Yeah. Okay. Anything else? No. Thank you so much, Candy. That's enough for tonight. Yeah. Okay. It'll really be nice when we can get together again to actually meet with each other and, you know, work through some things. It's a whole lot easier to do that not zooming.

Yes. Okay. Um, I guess the only to-do coming out of this really then is for Lois and I to meet and um start thinking about the whole business about getting something on the website about the tax credits and the National Historic Register and we'll wait to hear from George with the report and we'll meet March 18th is the third Thursday in in March. Do you guys Do you want to see a puppy?

Sure. Come here, sweetheart. Come on. Come on. A All puppies are cute. He got spooked. It's okay, sweetness. Here you go. It looks like it's got Springer Spaniel in it. Does it got Springer in it? No, it's a English shepherd.

Oh, got him for the sheep. Okay. And Mary, I think you got on after Miller and and Paige did. And just I'm going to tell you too, I'm be a grandma. Oh, all right. Nice. My daughter and her partner uh just actually today they're doing the foster to adopt program. Baby home today.

Nice. Old how old? How old? Month. Oh wow. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, I get to see her tomorrow if I can get out in the snow. We'll see. I don't think it's going to be a lot of snow. No, it doesn't look it doesn't sound like it.

Did you get your uh did you get your second vaccine? Yep, I did. Good. That really worked out well because again, I was getting it on Tuesday morning um with, you know, the storm Monday night into Tuesday. Well, and I was getting it in Brunswick. And what they did was they closed down in on the morning on Tuesday and they rescheduled everybody in the afternoon. So I got to go didn't have to I was thinking about getting myself a motel room in Brunswick. So I

but I didn't have to do anything. I because it you know by then the roads were okay on Tuesday afternoon. So yes, I had my second shot and I had no reaction. I mean, the the day I got the shot, my head felt a little stuffed full, you know, no headache or anything. I took a couple Tylenol and that was the end of that.

Wow. Good. I haven't had any reactions or anything. So, so far so good. Yeah. Okay. Do I have a motion to adjourn,