TranscriptPlanning Board Meeting ~ February 1, 2017

right. I'd like to call to order this planning board meeting February 1st, 2017. We'll start with the We have an establishment of quorum. Yes, we do. Um, stand for the pledge of allegiance. Algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

as I say that I realize it's a new guy. [laughter] I don't know. I'm Todd. Brian Lana. Excuse me. Lois. Good old French name. agenda? I just wanted the selectman's report I wanted to go over with you guys, but we can do that near the end. We can

do that later. I think uh acceptance acceptance of minutes for December. Anybody see anything glowering at us? yep. is reflected. Yeah. there any business to vote on at all tonight? Tonight? No. Okay. Well, except for for um if there's recommendations on what to move forward with the ordinance to the select board for

Okay. Um because we need five vote. Yes. Voting. Okay. So, just note that the alternates are in then tonight. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I just want if we I think you're gonna have to vote on the minutes because otherwise it's just me and Todd

because John wasn't here. You can't [clears throat] you can't be two of you. What's that? Yeah. It's got to be a minimum. You were here for [snorts] that meeting, right? Yeah. Okay. You can read. [laughter] So, we can't do the minutes again.

No, we can. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Juliet was here. Y Juliet's [clears throat] gonna Yeah. So Brian's first day on the board is as a voting member. There you go. [laughter] You might have to at some point, but it's a good start.

I I'm all set with them. I can move I'll move to accept the minutes for the December 7th meeting. I'll second it. All those in favor. We should um have you heard from Chip? No. We didn't hasn't said a word. Not a word. I suspect he's subbing. Just I I haven't heard thing either. I'm guessing

We should we wanted these guys out of the business. That's right. Worse. You're going to be other business instead of new business. Um what happened to the public to begin? Did away with that. Well, we can't do that. But Mr. Bailey, you can go first. Y'all, you're all set.

Um, what is it that you have? We should have had Well, well, this is my first. Like I said, my name's Kenneth Bailey. I lived in town for a long time. I know you know, but rest of these other folks don't. Yes. Um, the reason I'm here tonight is I bought a piece of property a year almost a year ago. Well, it'll be Yeah, it'll be a year ago until 25th of this month. And I gave my son and his wife and my three grandkids a five acre lot to build a house on. And the person that the client that I do a lot of work for, I bought the property off on him. And what I'd like to do, what I need to do is need to sell one of the front lots. I created two front lots that, you know, the second one I'm going to maintain ownership for five years, you know, down the road. But I need to be able to sell this one lot out front to pay for the property and me

to to to become out of debt. So I had spoke with Paul about it a couple different times and I come and seen him the other day and I said I wanted you know I asked when the next plane the board meeting was. He said tonight. So I come here to you know to see you folks and you know get the approval. Well, I'm not trying to create a subdivision by no means, but some people have said, "Well, it's a minor subdivision or whatever, what have you, and you know, if if I

didn't I haven't owned it for 5 years, so I I don't know really how." So, I'm here to find out which direction. Well, first we need a we need a proper application. We have no idea what you're doing. Yeah. Well, let's see that I'm here. This is the first time I've been here. So,

I know. So, to figure out what information you folks need from me and what I need from you folks. So, so the question the I had I didn't think it would be a problem for the board hearing the question as to whether or not he's creating a subdivision or if he's within his rights to subdivide one lot and sell it as he's maintaining ownership as I understand it. And Ann's the one who's going to straighten us out here.

Hi. that the one lot that he gave to his son is is is not part of the subdivision law. He's allowed to give a parcel of land to a family member um without it without creating a subdivision in regards to selling one other lot provided he keeps the third lot in his ownership. So the deal is and he bought a piece of parcel of land one year ago. Mhm.

He gave a 5 acre back lot to to his son. Okay. The family. He wants to sell a frontage lot and and keep the remainder of the land himself. Do you live on it? No, I live on the other side of the well couple miles across country, but I live right here in town.

So, it's not a house lot. Um, was the piece that you bought split off of anything? No, I bought it as one 44 acre parcel. Do you know when [clears throat] it was when that 44 acre parcel was created? Uh, a number of years ago. 40 years ago, probably. More than five.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Long long. This family's owned it for, like I said, 40, 50 years. So, where is it, Ken? Right over in 125 in Durham. So, has frontage on 125. Yeah. I got there's two two roadies lots. Mhm. Then so I'd have to look at the statute to see whether his son's lot doesn't count, but the exemption for holding it um only applies if it's if you live there, if it's your house lot. Um, so if his son's lot doesn't count,

his son does come in with the Sang I can't say the word sanguin relationship. He is exempt from subdivision by giving it to he's still got three lots then. Well, his son's restricted from sale for 5 years. I have to look at the statute.

Okay. Can't pull up because then the Wi-Fi is working. It is. Yeah. Are we allowed to connect to it? [laughter] Derm guest maybe primitive. [snorts] Oh, what's the password? Welcome one. Huh? Welcome one. Capital. Oh, maybe it's not working.

Oh, it was up for a moment. Now it looks like it's out. Let me see if I can get it on my phone. [snorts] That's what I'm trying to do. Which one are you? Linda Town Hall guest. Town hall. Durham guest. Durham. Durham guest.

Yeah. All right. A division of land accomplished by gift to a parent. Welcome month. That does not Did you sell it to your son? No, I gave it to him. Does not create a subdivision lot. So, so it has to be less than 50% of the

Yeah. retail value, right? No. So that only counts if the donor which would be this gentleman has owned the lot or parcel for a continuous period of 5 years immediately preceding the division by gift and the lot or parcel is not further divided or transferred within 5 years from the data division. So that would um splitting up a lot

the first lot. So then he would be creating three lots. Yeah. Yeah, if he sold. So, right now he's created two, which does not create a subdivision, but if he sells off that other lot, that creates three lots and that's a subdivision. [snorts]

Yeah. I don't think there's any other exemption that would apply. He has to have held it for 5 years. So, if it had been his if it if he was his residence, then he would have been exempted. Oh, yeah. Well, if it had been his residence, the third lot wouldn't count,

right? The lot that he maintained for his personal residence would not count. Correct. And I think that's a five-year requirement as well, although I can't find that one right now. subdivision, minor subdivision, not a major subdivision. So, this

Well, we don't have major and minor, but yeah. Yeah. So, I guess what do I need from you folks to to make this go forward? You have to bring a subdivision application before the board. Okay. So, will I get that from you folks or

you want to come in and see me in the morning? We'll get you set up. All right. Yep. Good enough. Let's get all the paperwork for you. All right. Good enough. Thank you folks for your time. Like I said, that's why I'm here to find out.

Don't want to be going doing something I ain't supposed to do and get in trouble and there you go. And whatever. So, thank you very much. Appreciate you folks time. All right. Thank you. Good thing you [clears throat] didn't listen to me.

Exactly. Thank you. I'll see you tomorrow. All right. See you later again. Thank you. Hey, I'm Barry Baldwin. Barry Baldwin. Um, I want to get on the agenda for the March 1st planning board meeting for a five large subdivision.

Um, I get if I can do it that way or do I need to come pick up the application first? But anyway, I want to be on the agenda. If you got time enough, you go to block. Okay. Uh, and I wanted to pick up uh if you still have a checklist for that kind of thing so that I can give it to my survey to make sure he didn't miss anything.

You have to see me in the morning. You have those? Okay. Yeah. I didn't know. It's been a while since I've been associated. Uh, I do have six plans and I know it's not official, but I have them in case you want them to look at them to

we'll put them in the application. We can move forward with it then. Okay. Well, we'll have full copies next month when we come, but I just brought six of these just in case they wanted to look at it. Where is it? Just out of curiosity.

It's uh Granite Farm Hill Road, but we used to be Boy Hill Extension, that 100 acre lot up there. Um I just sold one lot. So, and we're going to we're doing the five lot subdivision, but I brought to you just I know it's not procedure, but just as a courtesy in case someone wanted to look at them and

we'll just stick them in my office and if someone wants it, they can come by and grab them. That works. All right. And if they have any questions, I have a larger one. If somebody wants to look at it, they can. But we'll be

next uh next month. So, basically, I just want to come in and get on the agenda, see what you needed from me. Okay. Uh, well, it's good to have you. I know. I know, Barry. It's all home days, you know. I know. [laughter]

You didn't You didn't sign my papers yet either, Todd. I missed you the other day. I'll get you. I don't want I don't want to interrupt your meeting. Huh? [laughter and clears throat] Okay. Well, I'll bring You want me to bring them in the morning?

Yeah, bring them in the morning. We'll get you set up and take a little time and we'll go through what what I know, which isn't enough and we'll see if we can't embarrass both of us next month. No, we'll be fine. I've been embarrassed before. [clears throat]

Usually cause it myself, but that's all. Get along. But I'm sorry to interrupt procedure, but I really I thought that we had a uh used to have a uh public forum at first, so you could and I've seen I know better than to get into this huge thing, but I've seen it before where somebody came in to ask questions, they'd be an hour of the meeting.

But I was going to make There still is in the ordinance the ability to come before the planning board for subdivision, but you've got to have enough material to actually get through that process. and then Oh, I understand.

Yeah. No, we didn't plan to be here until March 1st, but I just wanted to get on the agenda. It doesn't hurt. It was my uh surveyor's uh suggestion answering questions without all the material. Yeah. No, and I wasn't even looking for that. I just was giving you a heads up. I know.

And uh I I know that's why we don't do that. I spent enough time myself. So, yeah, I know. All right. Good. I'll see you in a moment. Thank you. Thank you. Y Send that around before you leave or I don't want to interrupt the meeting, but if they want to if they don't mind. You don't have much going on, do you? [laughter]

It really hurts very go easy on us. It hurts. I I've [clears throat] never been easy to get along with before. Who what are you running for? The one-year term. Oh, yes. She didn't ask you what you're running from. No, that'll be the sheriff.

Everybody already knew the answer to that, Paul, but [laughter] easy. Yeah, I was uh I guess it was two years. Time [laughter] Excuse me. Time flies. I was two years ago. I was selecting Oh, you were? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was four or five years selecting.

You quit in a huff. [laughter] I did. I did quit when the administrative assistant quit abruptly when she talked me into running another term. How many signatures are it? I think it's I stayed because of her. You don't have to sign it.

I'm going to pass it along. I don't know you, sir. That's okay. [laughter] That's okay. You're going to wish you did. Yeah. Now you're on my list. Oh gosh. The right list. Don't worry. I don't have a bad list anymore. No, I I lean in both directions, so I no longer have a bad list.

Yeah, it's a good thing. You got one of those jobs. It's pretty hard to stay off people's list. Yeah. You know, as doable this as does this board. You know, you can't please everyone. Y I was wrong when I I told him that I thought so to understand that uh he has to own it 5 years before he can get the family exemption even of a house a house lot.

No, before he before I does he have to own it five years to transfer it to a family member exempt. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So if you that was the question in the first five years if he gives a lot to a fam or anyone gives a lot to a family member that does not constitute a subdivision but that stops it right there. So the second one would

right so if you only create two lots because you transfer to their kid that's not a subdivision is that because of the five years is my question because right now I mean like I've owned this land forever. If I want to give one to my son, it doesn't have to be part of the subdivision.

And right, I think exempt that one from If I'm wrong on that one, boy, I really got problems cuz I probably knew what was going on. All right, get me up. All right. A little closer to the ballot. Well, thank you to those who did. [laughter]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to those who didn't. Yeah, I said thank you for considering. I'll cover it. All right. Thank you, Mary. See you later. We'll see you in the morning. Good. I have to move, don't I? That's it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it has to be held in 5 years. I'm Brian. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Brian Ann is our go-to [clears throat] with all technical questions. So is lawyer. So is Brian our newest member? Yeah,

we have two alternate alternate me. So I don't think you really need me anymore. [laughter] No, we had no choice. Oh no, no, no, no, no. We don't smoke it no more. Easy craziness. You're here forever. You and Paul forever. [laughter] Yeah, they're going to

We held a vote earlier. They're going to chain us to a log in the basement. Yep. [laughter] We'll let you go. All right. What's next? All right. I just I wanted the board to have the information that I had given to the select board in regards to how the ordinance in the town has been

um basically how it's been focusing housing, where it's going in the future, and why some of those issues are coming up and they're going to come up before this board in the way that you craft future ordinance. Um, this year essentially what happened this year is we used up or consumed the majority of the um available subdivision lots in town. There's very little off the main road. There are no new subdivisions coming forward. There haven't been any in years because it's been restrictive. The ordinances are restrictive to subdivision. So what's left is is the growth pressure which is starting to accelerate significantly in Durham is going to apply itself to road frontage. Um at the rate that we've been going for the last 40 years that's about which we did this year 30 houses a year. So 300 a decade of 17 and a half linear miles of

rural road frontage will be consumed by mailboxes and driveways every 10 years. If you take the map, which I which is what I did just for something else to do here, I took the Durham's parcel map and this actually isn't complete. San Hill subdivision isn't on here and a few others. And you can see how dense the population areas are along the Freeport, Brunswick, Toum,

Lisbon area. The growth district, which is in the center here, really hasn't [clears throat] seen significant growth in a considerable amount of time. Um, if we add frontage lots on the existing town roads because you can't really do much in the way of back lot development, you're about 10 to 15 years out of consuming all the available road frontage lots in the town. At that point in time, the only way to manage your financial stability in town is through tax increases.

That is that's only if any one of those lots is uh for sale. Well, and that's true. I mean, you're going to reach max density is what it comes down to. The way the current ordinances are constructed, if you it's a matter of supply and demand. If you can't expand your tax base, your existing taxpayers have to pay all the costs necessary to manage town, which is double-digit tax increases for a considerable amount of time. You don't have the advent of highv value shore frontage, high value lake frontage to sort of help subsidize. Durham doesn't really have any of those attributes. Um, the ordinances are highly restrictive to business and they're highly restricted to subdivisions. So, it's it's going to essentially the the pro the and and it's not my town. I these are just decisions that are coming up really close, really near in the future. The the comp plan committee is working on this stuff.

There's a lot of push to maintain open space and rural character. There's a lot of push to build houses. There's a lot of conflict going on here that has nowhere to go. And it's going to be really really difficult without properly crafting the uh the comp plan in the future ordinances to try to consider just exactly how the town wants to try to deal with this. I don't know what

so what are we saying in this like um what what's the action item? I guess there's no action. It's just information. It's just a it's just to try to if you look at the graph on the on the third page of that really good information. I just didn't know what we were.

You can see since 295 was completed and 136 was expanded in in the mid70s. It's 300 houses essentially 300 houses every 10 years for the last 40 years. Yeah. And it's not going to stop. It's actually the the the thing that doesn't show up in the graph is that a significant part of the last decade was curtailed by the housing recession that started in 2008. And a significant part of this decade is also in that

circumstance. The first four or five years of this decade, you know, 2010, 11, 12, 13 was was relatively slow. Mhm. Um, my suspicions are that 30 or so houses a year is going to move to 40 or 50 because the southern pressure is is it's it's hard to explain how much pressure there is for Durham to grow right now. Well, that southern pressure is also going to drive up the lot values which are going to make a subdivision more financially feasible.

Correct. For a contractor, for a developer. Yeah. For a developer. Absolutely. And that's that's what's going to end up happening. What did we just saw? Two people come in here. You've never done a subdivision. Two people come in here. First month of No,

there's another one in the works. Second month of 2017. But there are still some complications within the ordinance as far as the growth um the growth restrictions in our in our in our ordinance that hasn't been administrated properly to to stay within the state guidelines and could be open to challenge uh which restricts subdivision to five lots in the rural district.

Um there's you're saying that part of our ordinance could be challenged by somebody. Yeah, we the growth that we we have not followed the growth act correctly administratively in town in order to have the right to use it to manage growth.

We haven't done the work. There's been nothing done. So, it's open to challenge. Okay. All right. And and it's as far as MMA is concerned. Um we shouldn't try to enforce it. We should try to comply before we try to enforce it.

Um because what's MMA? at the main municipal association. It's kind of the sort of the legal um overseer for most of the small communities. It's it's a kind of a think tank that manages a lot of what municipalities do and they lobby the the state for different um

they publish a lot of advisories and laws and so on. Do a lot of lobbying. So, it's a complicated issue here because there's a lot of people that don't want subdivision. There's a lot of people that don't want growth. There's a lot of people are very, you know, people are very very clear about what they don't want.

And I think the difficult part to try to get to with this is to try to find out exactly what it is about what people don't want that they don't want. Okay, they don't want subdivision, but what is it about subdivision that they don't want? What is it about certain types of business growth that they don't want? Do they not like the visual part of it? You know, if you can find the mechanics of what they don't like about it and answer to those concerns, I think a lot more avenues become open for Durham to expand its tax base. And there are some in town who are going to be perfectly happy to let their taxes go up two and $3,000 a year for 10 or 15 years um and just to keep during them just exactly like it is. Well, they'll be only ones left

and they will and that's true. But you but the hardest part about this is that it has to be pretty inclusive and incorporating what people are trying to get to and pretty important to try to figure out how to formulate that to satisfy that in order to get it through town meeting which is where all of this stuff has to go.

So is this the kind of stuff the comp plan committee is looking at? Yeah, I was just going to say that. So yeah, these are things that we are definitely going to get into. Well, part of the reason that I brought it before this board is because once the comp plan committee is done, this is what's going to focus what you we will, you know, that you guys will do and craft an ordinance. I really would like to look at a little bit of the form based stuff, but it hasn't gotten a lot of traction

in the town, you mean? Or there's a type there's a type of ordinance called form based I'm I'm familiar with it. Zoning. It hasn't gotten traction in Durham or you mean in Maine? It's having a lot of difficulty getting developer investment because it's a it's a format they're not familiar with. People like to do what they know how to do. They know what their dollar figures are if they're out there doing the usual thing. So, if you start making this thing a little bit too flexible, they just that's all right. They'll wait.

Runs with going to form based code. They're talking. Topsum's talking about it. Thompson, which just seems a little odd to me because Topppsum really I don't Thompson doesn't have a defined downtown. You know, there's certain parts of Topppsum that it just

I don't understand how it's going to help them do what it is they want to do, but I think it was Standish that adopted a few years ago, right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how that's worked for them. It hasn't. That's the thing. And I've been in contact with several of the town managers in the communities that have started to try to utilize this and it's been really difficult to get it off the ground once they've adopted it. They think it's a great tool. Um but they haven't got anybody stepping up to sort of be the poster boy. Let's go see how this goes. You know, it's kind of

close your eyes and, you know, head downhill. [laughter] I mean, you have to you have to ratify the bill before you know what's in it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, just kind of what's coming. Um there's a lot about the previous comp plan that was was done well and but one of the one of the main reasons that the state didn't certify it is because the the utilization of a growth district in town was not structured properly enough to relieve pressure from the rural area. So having the same size lot with 50 foot of frontage less in the growth district does not induce growth in the growth district and it doesn't take the pressure off of the rural areas.

We've talked about that. No. And the fact that all of the the majority of the pressure in in housing at least is along the corridors that are the employment corridors. You know where folks are going to work. If you look there's nothing on the Auburn end. There's very little coming on the Auburn end. Let's keep it that way. [laughter]

Yeah. With that. So, but you know, but in understanding that if that's the case, sometimes the things that you really want to look at is, you know, take the bus in the direction it's already going. Mhm. You know, what do you do with the growth district? If that if that's where the growth pressure is, is that where the growth district belongs?

Does that make sense? Has anybody looked lately to see if there's any lots left in the growth district that are, you know, considerable amounts of area? I was trying to figure out where the growth district is. I know it's like,

but I think I think we're kind of putting the carp for the horse a little bit in this because we don't the growth district could change. Could change based on what we're hearing from on the comp plan. Well, the growth district can only change if the town votes to change it.

Well, chip. Right. So the, you know, the town's going to vote on the comp plan on everything we have in the comp plan, right? But then and then we have to change, but then our ordinance will have to change, right? That's step two.

The comp plan group, I mean, certainly I mean, we're we're talking about a lot of different things. I think when the comp plan group starts to get a little bit of traction and actually getting it into work that gets out of the vision statement mode and I think we we need to sit down this board with the comp plan group and

select group different meetings. We should be up on this because Mhm. Yes. There's no sense in doing it two or three times. But there's really nothing we can do from now until when that comp plan is finished and then when it's voted, approved, and then once we start

I'm not an advocate of wait until things are ready to start moving. No, no, no, no. I'm not either, but I'm just thinking like um the word help them along the way. I mean, I think what needs to start among this board in my opinion because you're already doing ordinance work is, you know, what does the future of ordinance work look like for us? What what do we want to focus on? you know, where do we think that some of this stuff is going to wind up?

I don't see how we make ordinance changes before the comp plan's finished. You or before at least we have a sense of what where the comp plan is headed because we make ordinance changes. I think you prepare yourself to make ordinance changes by knowing just exactly what it is you want to do with ordinance.

Well, it doesn't matter what we want to do if it doesn't match what the comp plan is. Yeah. You won't you're not going to be you're not going to be ignorant of what the complaint is on it. Yeah, right. We would we definitely would. I mean, we're going to come to

that's the growth district in the middle. Oh, we need to make that bigger for background. I mean, everything else for residential everything residential or resource. Yeah. I mean, half the people last night said they didn't want any

change at all. So, I don't know how the clown plan, right? But then they're the same people that that their taxes are either. No, I had I don't remember where it was. I was meeting last night. I mean, I this you got a difficult task. There's no doubt about it.

Taxes have doubled since I bought my damn house. That wasn't that long ago. That was 2009. They've doubled. And they're going to double again in the next 10 years. They're going to double again in the next 10 years. And it's going to and and there are folks that are perfectly willing to allow that to happen. And there are folks that are frustrated that that'll happen. And there are folks that really don't know how to,

you know, it's a matter of supply and demand in my mind. And and if you if you don't want a lot of tax increases, you've got to increase the supply, it'll help keep property values down, if you change or include along the in the growth area the the heavily populated portions along that have already been started to fill out. used these areas up along Freeport, Topppsum, Brunswick, and Lisbon are not utilizing a lot of municipal service because they're going the other way on the roads. They're using short sections of roads to get in and out of town.

In our current ordinance, you can only put 34 houses every mile. You can't pay for the road on 34 houses a mile. You can't It costs 750 bucks a year to manage the road in front of one home. Mhm. They only get 650 a year from the for the municipality share of the annual tax. They're going backwards by 22%.

Annually just on the road. That doesn't mean never mind the municipal services here, the fire department picking up the trash, you know, paying the the town clerks and those folks. It's finding the balance, you know, because there's a lot of there were a lot of voices in the room last night that feel like the more growth there is residential means it's another family with a couple kids going into the school system driving costs there.

Um, I don't buy that. Right. But that's that's the voice that says, you know, we don't want to grow is because the fear is the more families come, the more cost that is to to the town. But I think the point you made last night, John, which is the point you're making now, is that these pressures, this is going to happen anyway, is I mean, you know, you and I had the same motivations for coming here,

which is going to keep driving people to come here. So, yeah, that's not going to change. Yeah. There's some significant misnomers in town regarding subdivision and a lot of it was based on the early subdivision experiences in town with substandard roads and things weren't done well and people wind up carrying the bill and nobody likes to do that.

I think that John's point in that, you know, the Patriot Way is a neighborhood. It's not you can't do that on 136. The kids can't go ride their bikes and hang out in the front of the house and the kids across the street come running over and stuff. It's not the same experience.

And and those sorts of things need people need help to understand how that's valuable to town and how it can be done in a way that doesn't take away from what they appreciate in town. And so, you know, Ann and I had shared some ideas on on managing open space. you know, that that allows for growth to be taken off of the off of the roadfront, pulled back beyond the open space a little bit, working in cluster housing circumstances. You know, I would like to see and and and thinks I'm pioneering this because no one else has been able to do it, but the the using the subdivision open space requirement as a corporate application rather than the four acres of swamp just like they spoke about last night,

you know. So I think that if if it's if you the reason I wanted you guys in on this is because this is going to focus where your work is in the future and it's a lot nearer than you think. So if you guys can start discussion through ordinance work as to what the future of ordinance should look like in Maine in Durham

while the comp plan is committing completing its work. you're coming out of the box where the comp plan is voted into work with presenting to the select board immediately how the legislation in town needs to apply to that because the place that the last comp plan failed was implementation.

It's completely implementation. Is there a group or a person or a resource that could come in as a peer review and go through our ordinance and talk about opportunities in our ordinance and ordinance structure and make recommendations that these are the weaknesses we see in your ordinance that should have more deliberation?

What do you mean weaknesses? [clears throat] I don't know. You know, I mean, every time I look at another ordinance from another community, it's like, "Oh, that's a neat provision. That's a neat provision." Is there somebody who looks at a lot of ordinances out there and and has eyeballs on a lot of different things and and

that's you, John? No. [laughter] Like, hell no. Not a lawyer. No, they definitely have those types of consultants, but I still think that with the comp plan process going on right now, it's almost like um you need to be hot on that tail.

Yeah. But but like having that review would be perfect for when the comp plan like at the last you know have it done once like at the end because we'll have to redo the ordinance. Oh we certainly have to redo the ordinance but [clears throat] you know while we're restructuring it is there things we want to address.

So I think the problem is this is not going to be popular. There are no good consultants in the state that are doing that. Um, and I'm serious. You know, we had AV Cog in before you came on and that was not helpful. We had the code officer from Bowden.

Sorry, I was not impressed. Um, I've had people deal with GPCOG, also not impressed. I've had someone have one of the law professors from Maine Law did theirs and that was a joke. Um, you know, [snorts] the problem is, and frankly, I see this as a business opportunity that I'm not taking advantage of yet, but but there's no one doing it well that I've seen. Um, some of the big guys that have that are doing it are bringing in folks from out of state a lot to as consultants and we can't afford them.

Um, but that's like that's why this ordinance sucks [laughter] and this ordinance process sucks is because we're doing it internally. Like if you paid someone like me to do this, I could pull this ordinance apart and put it back together and it would be great start to finish, but we can't pay someone to do that. So, we're all halfassing it on our free time. And honestly, I don't have a super incentive to prioritize this over my paying job.

Um, and neither do you for everyone. And that's why I neither do you. And neither does anybody else who's chipping in. Um, and that's the hard part. This is not a great way to redo an ordinance. Well, and you've had a consistent leadership model, I think, in town that was is just trying not to spend any money.

I get it. Yeah. And I understand that, too. But but some of this stuff to fix it properly is going to require the investment and it'll come back around, but it's hard to be the person at town meeting taking the hit for putting it forward. So, I've actually tried to have some conversations with GP Peacock about regional planning. You know that I mean the southern part of the state has got to start to get smart on regional planning here or it's you just can't do it town by town when the entire region is impacted.

They aren't already doing that stuff. There are a few communities that tend to do regional planning, but they tend to be the bigger guys. Okay. Yeah, like Portland, South Portland, Scar Bro or you know, Lewis and Auburn,

you know, Cape Elizabeth and you know, but but the you know, Portland is Portland is the is the driving factor around most of the communities that that we live in, you know, and and if some of the way that transportation corridors are handled, some of the ways that all of those regional applications start to come into play. I mean, if if 50% of Durham works in Portland, [snorts] regional planning is an important thing. It's really and it needs to be an important thing from their perspective

because what they're doing is affecting us far more than what we're doing is affecting them, right? Uh, and you could start to get coherent ordinances from town to town from so that you start to have you start to wind up with without having little [clears throat] really weird little individual applications every time you cross the town line that there's some cohesive application to what's going on.

And at least if nothing else, people are looking at it that way, even if they're not driving the bus as far as policy is concerned. Um, but anyway, I I understand you want to wait till the comp plan's done. And my fear in most of this, and it's and it is a fear, is that the the wheels of government move really really really slow.

You guys are two years out to getting hopefully if if everything kind of clicks, you guys are two years out to getting a an approved comp plan. If you wait until the comp plan is approved to start doing ordinance work, you're another two to three years out or two to five years out from there. Now you're halfway to where I said you were going that you don't want to go. So if you have prepared in some measure or at least mentally prepared in some measure to to be moving really rapidly once the program is laid out and voted on and approved, you know, it's kind of like the car's loaded. You know, as soon as they give us yes, we're going, you know, it's not

I wonder Yeah, defin I completely agree with you on that. I'm just trying to think of how that would be how how we do that. Maybe like on the comp plan if we go start going topic by topic and then so if someone if we start on housing and and we we have the public meetings and everyone [clears throat] seems to agree cluster cluster subdividing is the way to go and not along the streets then we start looking at that at that time like

and and Ann's going to be again better at this you already know that they want to manage manage farming. You already know they want to manage recreational space. You already know that they want to manage some open rural application. Okay? So, there's already sort of a basic outline about what you can expect, you have to include in the comp plan, which will have to include how your ordinances are constructed. So if you can start to compartmentalize your ordinance in looking at those particular issues as as the community comes forward to express to you what it is that they want most in those you you are you're building the outline for go

that's that's good um and this is you know ordinance work it's a little bit like dentistry without novacaane you know there's really nobody wants in on it and then there's no way out of it once you get started um and the recovery time is long

I I mean, I I'm seeing, you know, if this is a two-year process to do the comp plan, you know, maybe after the first year, we start to work in parallel, not to draft our ordinance, even if we don't intend on implementing it for two years out, [clears throat] you know, so that approved and

then we finish out polishing the ordinance piece because I mean, I think it would make sense to it's hard for us to get through it in a year just making the changes we're making now. And I think it would make sense to continue the momentum instead of,

you know, people will remember what the comp plan was about and then you've got kind of this complimentary ordinance thing whereas if it ends up being two years later, people are going to be checked out of the whole thing.

So I mean something I think that we could start doing is having a workshop or multiple workshops on tools to manage growth. Yeah. So finding I can't believe I'm saying this a planner you know to come in and talk about because there are a bunch I mean there are a bunch of tools. So do you encourage cluster subdivisions? Do you do it through multiple zoning? Do you do it through incentives? Do you you know how do you manage growth and try to push it towards towards the areas that you want and away from areas that you don't want? Um, and so I don't know if that's what Paul's heading towards, but workshops like that to get us starting to think about the tools we might have to accomplish whatever goals take those tools to the public meetings to educate the public

because a lot of this is really what what they want. Right. Right. So, we would have to learn first what those tools are, right? And then we'd go to the public and say, "Hey guys, you know, this is what what do we want here?" Right. I think there's a huge opportunity for the comprehensive plan committee and the planning board to have conversations and learn about these tools in a workshop.

Absolutely. Is this something AFCOG and and GPCOG can do like this planner type? Probably there are also GPCOG is been contracted by the comp or if it's final yet but is in process to be contracted to help with a comp plan

you know. Um Stephanie Stephanie. Yeah. Yeah. So is she someone that may but that the main part about that is for is is for um the data part. Okay. So you know what's I think one of the other things that you guys might want to talk about and consider and it's going to require a little bit of conversation and a little pressure as to whether or not you want to go outside the board to do your next ordinance. Do you hire a professional based on what's starting to come forward through the comp plan to start to lay out the formwork for where you want your future [clears throat] ordinance to go or do you guys want to do it in house?

Oh, I that's a trouble. [clears throat] So, where do we find somebody? Well, finding somebody you have to find the money first. Oh, I'm wondering [laughter] are there other are there local community or adjacent communities that are similar in size and in and infrastructure that have been through this recently and and who have they hired as a consultant because I

uh North ARTH has hired has hired GP COG to do most of their comp plan rewrite. They've done a considerable amount of it there. Most of the small communities you'll find it's [clears throat] been my experience anyway. Right. And so I'm talking from my experience, not from an overall review of the state. Most of most of the small communities are like Durham and they all kind of sit in their little room and try to do what they can with it. Um they often times are restricted financially. Um there's a there's a reticent to go before the town and try to sell the fact that we need a pretty good chunk of money to kind of lay this stuff back in line. Um, and it can be a pretty hard sell, you know, frankly, considering who it is that comes to town meeting to vote. Very small [snorts] group of people. Um, the majority of them are trying to be ultimately fiscally conservative. And there isn't a lot of time in a one-day

meeting to educate to them as to why it's important. And if they don't think it's important, then you you know, you it's it's it's a it's a wonderful process in many ways. But the democracy they went on last night at the, you know, at the comp plan meeting is where that kind of work gets into the community in ways that's understandable and it's not fury action that's going on. You guys are actually starting to understand that there there's going to be a need to take action on some of this stuff and you can't, you know, you can't put a house fire out with a teaspoon. It's just that simple. So

if if the comp plan committee has a budget to hire consultants, is there any way to leverage some of that some of those funds with a consultant that's already on board? I had a comp when we had an interview with her and she didn't really react like, "Oh yeah, that's great. We could

I was really kind of surprised because I I kind of expected when I asked the question of GP cog, okay, we have you in for this process. What support can you provide in the next step?" And she really didn't. She kind of looked at me like, "What are you talking about the next steps?" So, um, I don't know if I didn't ask the question right or or what, but I was like, "Oh, okay."

I mean, so this is my my own significant bias is I think planners are great for giving you the ideas. I don't like planners writing ordinances um, a lot. But I think that's what we're looking for are ideas that we're going to need to complement the comp plan or come to the comp plan uh board with or committee with to say, "Hey, these are the what we this is what we learned. This is what we're hearing. Um we might want to look into this uh in the future to add to the complaint or compliment."

Yeah. I mean, I'm going to get on a same horse that [laughter] is all right. It the way that we're trying to fix this ordinance is not going to work. So we need to go before the board, the select board and the and the budget committee and convince them that there needs to be a substantial amount of necessary funds made available with which to reconstruct. And this thing here can go in the trash and start over. Um and and that I think is probably the most coherent way to get a coherent ordinance back out of the program. It's you, you know, right now you guys started off trying to make a horse and wound up with a camel and I'm there isn't enough surgery to fix it in my mind in this particular ordinance. So that's where the trickiness comes in is to try to sell to folks. One is why it needs to be replaced and two is why it's going to take a little bit of money to do it well and it needs to be done well

because not having been done well for 15 years has hurt everybody in town. Completely agreed. The thing that I'm I'm Are we talking about going in front of them at the Because we have to do it at a town meeting, right? No. I mean, you can ask the board of selectmen for money.

Petitioning the board of selectmen and it's not going to happen this year. Oh, okay. It's not likely. It's they're too far into the budget process. Okay. I was just wondering. So, we're looking at do you want to spend another year taking the backlot ordinance apart or taking, you know, various parts of the ordinance that we're hitting our heads on and see if we can't try again to fix another little piece of this. And this is the conversation that I think that you guys really ought to be having about where where are you going next year with anything other than applications.

I mean, so I think just talking through the process. So, the comp plan sets priorities. That's what they do. They're not necessarily setting strategies, right? They set priorities. Here are our priorities. We want to protect farmland. We want to protect, you know,

recreational space and we want to we want to grow in [clears throat] limited areas or in this amount or, you know, whatever. And here's what our population projections are and where we want it to be and D. So, the comp plan really sets broadbased goals. And then how I see it is a planner can come in and say, "Hey, here are some really cool ideas for how to work towards your goals." And then you need someone who's actually going to do the drafting. And I don't as a lawyer.

There's no one. You can't afford a lawyer [laughter] honestly. Um, you can't we can't afford a lawyer to do it. And honestly, they they don't do this. So who does it? No one does it. Well, so no. So seriously, so that means no one does it well.

That means there are no ordinances in our whole state that are well that have been done well. Correct. [laughter] I'm I have not come across I mean seriously on that one, right? They're all done bits and pieces. Well, we shouldn't feel too bad.

So [laughter] I mean I think I mean honestly ours is not like Well, why don't we get a New Hampshire or Mass one? We could. I mean, [snorts] sorry my nose. But um Mass, they're done pretty well. New Yorks are some of them are done pretty well.

I think there are some really good models out there. Yeah. But the part of the complication of this model, this model was developed as a shoreland zone model back in the 70s and it was produced by the main state D to protect shoreland zone because there was so much water pollution in Maine that they wanted to start to clean up the water, [snorts] work with [clears throat] the the subsurface wastewater systems, pull the overboard discharges back away. So they started to use this as a means of restricting growth and use in the w in the shoreland zone areas. They also [snorts] encouraged the communities to take that format and move it into the entire land use of the town. And in my mind after watching 40 years of what's happened with this particular type of structure is it's failed miserably as a as a general land use model. It's worked very well as a shoreland zone model. So I think getting some outside ideas getting

somebody who who can work with a planner as a planner and understand that this is an annual thing and what I had mentioned to the select board is there's a type of of computer programming that's called PID programming and what it is is you you tell the program what you want to do the program makes adjustments based on what it sees coming and then at the end of it the the derivative part takes the conclusion and changes the parameters going back in the sec next the front again so that the next time you run the machine down the road it starts to hone its performance and that's what a town planner does with the type of folks that Ann's talking about working with so it's becomes an ongoing relationship of constantly monitoring the data which no one's looked at the data in town until I pulled some of this stuff out and started mining [clears throat] the planner the town planner CEO or whoever you call the person doing it

here has to be able to continually mine that data annually, evaluate whether or not it's in compliance with where you want to go, make some readjustments, and stick it back in at town meeting with those improvements to carry forward into the next year and constantly rolling this thing forward. Y

and that's the way that I see the best way to manage it. So, when we did the I think I'd already know the answer, but I'm just going to ask the question anyway. I was really surprised when with the cost for using um the GP COG services to

do the comp plan things because of the supplement money from the state dot and planning. There were various grants forestry's got a little forestry etc that kind of offset our local cost in order to accomplish the comp planing goals. Nothing in zoning.

I don't think so. No, they have they pulled the SPO. I mean, that's the current administration pulled the SBO right out of the program immediately. So, yeah, there's they that that's been dismantled surprised when she said, you know, well, there's this grant and this grant and there's money in these opportunities to help rural communities that don't have a plan of resource. But she also did say that the majority of additional funds that used to come from the state for this had been have been gone for a while um when the SPO was dissolved.

So anyway, all that money we sent [clears throat] to Augusta just want to get some of it back. [laughter] Good luck. Yep. Well, all right. So, what are we doing with all the drafts we already have? throwing them out so I don't have to finish them.

So, are we um I'm I'm hopeful we have something to bring to the board. I don't know. [laughter] It's not done. I went and looked at John's road ordinance. Like, I have no idea what he means. [laughter] I didn't know what you wanted me to do with that.

Oops. Um I mean, we've made some changes. is if we can get my computer up on the screen, I can go through some of them, but I haven't incorporated the roads yet. Um cuz I couldn't figure it out. And we're just I mean, it's bits and pieces.

So, I'm sorry. You're in the middle right now of drafting a new ordinance. Just minor changes trying to make some revisions to the system. It's mostly rearranging, right? Does this board feel that having a town planner, at least a someone in the office doing town planning on a regular basis is a a necessary attribute

for Durham. I think it would. Depends on the money. I don't think we're, you know, I think we're heading in that direction. And yeah, there's no doubt that our town hall as our community grows and gets more complicated, town hall is going to have to grow. The trick is paying for it.

Yeah. You know, coming up with a plan that shows us the direction we need to head towards and finding that balance of trying to keep it palatable, improving the push is coming, right? The push has been here for 40 years. The end result is coming.

If you look at the way that the growth has gone in Durham, it's already it's been going on. It's been ongoing for 40 years and no one's been looking at it. And they've been continually crafting ordinance over the last 15 years to try to stop it. And all it's done is exacerbate it

and because you can't you can't maintain a low tax base in a rural character in a town with a house every 300 ft down the road. You just can't do it. Well, especially when you get a high school liquid. Yeah. There's a lot of complicated issues, but um

somebody in my mind the one of the biggest things that's been lacking administratively in town over the last 15 years is someone paying attention to the data and the circumstances around growth and use. I don't think anybody's even looked.

No one has. There's been no one. So I in my opinion and it's just and I'm not it's not my tax base you know somebody in town needs to take on at least some of the rudimentary tasks of planning and that's what planning is is managing the data watching the way that things are developing and and what those impacts are. I'm a little surprised that Durham can't afford it. I know Bowdenham has a town planner.

meetings I went to when we met the consultant who presented last night. Um he worked with Bowdenham and it people around the table were pretty surprised that Bowdenham had a town plan. Um so I guess it and your previous comp plan from 14 years ago

recognized that a town planner or CEO was going to be an important attribute and a necessary function to moving forward and maintaining where Durham wanted to go and implementation by the select board for some most of this stuff.

Have you How long you been here? Three years. Two almost three years. Yeah. It took so it took 12 years to bring in a good CEO [laughter] and get you up to a and frankly a regular and now more than an afternoon a week and half of half of what I'm doing is actually the planners.

No, totally. No, totally agree. So, so I think we know where the bottleneck is, you know, as to why we don't have a planner. I mean, I don't So, could we It's a It's going to be an interesting conversation over the next couple years. And it's really going to sort of define it as to where you guys go. And you're going to get a lot of I think you're going to get a lot of folks in the community that want to understand more about what the or most people don't have a clue what the ordinances are.

The select board hasn't read the ordinance. I mean, you can't run a town when you don't know the laws, but um I find very, very few people know much of anything about it. You guys are going to be the most well informed and you can help people understand why it's been very difficult for the taxpayers in town who have to come before this board to try to get things

to try to get use permits. You know, what's what are the significant factors and and you're going to need to be able to speak to that. Well, and also as development increases, the chances for battles will increase as well, you know. So, that's another reason why we should really sharpen our ordinance.

Yeah, I don't see that. Yeah, maybe. I guess I'm not sure. I haven't looked at that part to you know to see I mean I'm looking forward through the lens looking backward and that hasn't been the case. Yeah. So what I see what I see has already been happening in my mind has the momentum to most likely be what's going to continue to happen. That doesn't mean new things won't happen but

I mean like new types of development, different things that we've never seen before, you know. Well, you're going to get a lot of pressure for subdivision as property values increase. Then developers start looking at parcels of land that can be turned into subdivisions. You know, um there's a lot of stuff. But anyway,

do Paul, just quickly, do you see based kind of on your experience, do you see pressure coming to Durham for rental housing like apartment? Do you see people come who would come to Durm and say I want to build apartment buildings or an apartment complex or have you

don't really have a lot of that currently. We don't we don't have any of it besides the accessory apartments. You got [clears throat] the one spot down off of the off of Pink and Brook Road where there was the condos there and that's it. Yeah. I mean, I just know I mean, it's been a while since I've been involved in the affordable housing world, but I mean, I know that

know that there's more there's more and more kind of pressure to spread that out so that you don't have, you know, I think there's just more pressure to kind of have it spread out into some of the smaller communities. Well, part of the requirement by the state in the growth ordinance in order to restrict growth using a growth ordinance is you have to be you have to manage and include the inclusion of low-income housing. Mhm.

I think that was one of the objections to to the actual comp plan and this has to be documented and you have to do annual reports to the state how you're satisfying those particular requirements and by what means. So, you know, this home rule thing is just a way for the state not to have to do their job. Um, but if the towns don't don't utilize the necessary requirements under the laws that allow them that type of rule, everybody's losing.

Okay. So, you know, growth ordinances can be great if they're implemented correctly and and there's a reason to implement them in certain ways and construct them in certain ways and the comp plan is the one that's supposed to help figure that part of it out, you know. So back when the that comp plan was done, we tried to get some easier some uh

rental some easier ways to do rental housing and there was push back against it and that's why the there so restrictive you know. Well, but the but today's world there's a a much higher degree of the population are renters now than they were coming out of 2004 2005.

But is it but you know I can understand the restriction though if you what does uh the renter market bring to the community you know does it is it increasing the revenue enough to the town to offset the the density? Y you know I I you know

yeah it's a it's a good question. It's a good point. you know, if if I'm a developer building a a rental unit, I'm going to push because, you know, that's a way I can make revenue for my business. But what amount of taxes do

this side of the table? What does what does a rental bring to the community other than solving a requirement to have a lower cost housing option, affordable housing to meet? Well, it increases density, but it also increases municipal services,

right? and more likely to too unfortunately. Well, but you could look into I mean there are I think what need I think the important part here is to step out of the classic model the the sort of historic classic model. I mean what if your what if your condominium was for 55 and older?

No, absolutely. You know, I mean there are ways that and there's a lot of the of a lot of folks my age and older that are are would be considered low income. you know that we just, you know, we worked hard but haven't had a chance to save much and really don't have much to do and it's we're running near the end of the road here and you know we'd rather not crash in the end of the culde-sac. It'd be nice if we had a small apartment or something and a lot of our parents have been doing that. You know, they're downsizing. They're trying to live on social security. So there's I think that if the the the the issue with most of

these things is to try to hit it with as broad a brush as you can and see how to be as inclusive and and that's why a growth a planner is so important to a growth or you know because that can be a way to satisfy some of those requirements without the additional municipal burdens. Well, if one of the and if one of the goals I mean if you know the idea is to make the community senior friendly. I mean

I know that in places where senior housing has been built I mean it's serving the people who are already living in the community who can't afford their house. They can't afford the maintenance. So I mean it's providing an opportunity for some of those folks to stay in the community and stay involved. So

yeah we're not working anymore. So we're our income just dropped 30%. Because now we're living on social security. There's a lot of house there's a lot. So we sell a house to have a little nest egg and we'll move into a you know a a smaller apartment at half the cost and stay in our hometown and yeah there's all of that comes into play.

Grand kids are still around. They want us to be close to grandkids and but [clears throat] if you did something like that could you keep your cap of um building permits? So, if you had a um uh over 55 community with say somebody came in and just wanted to build 30 houses and your your building permit cap is at 30, is that a way to manage growth? So, so that your cap is done with one subdivision and you're done for that year.

So, that's that's a great question. What's the purpose of a growth ordinance? Is it to restrict building or is it to manage growth? And the growth ordinance we have was strictly just to stop people from building in town and it can be used in that way if you want. Um but again now you're getting back into the town planner part of things. You know you can manage growth by cut off limits or you can manage growth by planning. And you know frankly cut off limits haven't helped Durham much. I just don't I just don't see that it has proven itself to be effective in managing and in maintaining the direction the town wants to find itself in 10 years from now because it didn't do it in the last 15. So I you know that's to me again I'm looking forward through a backward lens but it's time to start looking at what hasn't been working and you know not put it back through the hamburger mill. you know, it once was steak and we'll try to

eat it in hamburg as hamburger and see if enough pickles and mustard we can get it down. I'm not I don't know that that makes sense, but I don't get to decide this stuff now. Thank you. Yeah. [laughter] So, you know, and the important part for you guys is you, you know, is is how do you frame the conversation? How do you steer the conversation? How do you help everybody at the table with completely disperate ideas about what to do that they can all get what they want if we do it right?

So, it's worth doing right. And it's worth spending the money to do it, right? Is there a possibility of getting a part-time planner? Oh, yeah. Like like we do. I already have a part-time planner. [laughter] I know. That's where I'm going.

You just don't pay for them. Put on your planner hat, right? You know, you have you have two hats hanging in your office now. I know. If you're wearing the blue one, we know what is. So, if we're looking at the So, if we're looking at this town meeting that's going to happen in a couple months, what if we want to put this ordinance in front of it? What's our timetable?

We need to have it really quickly. We couple of weeks here, we can get whatever and I'm sorry. [laughter] No, I was supposed to have it done this weekend. If we can just get what we what the work that you've done compiled into it into the document as one piece, then you can we can bring it before the board.

Okay. Okay. If we could have it for next Tuesday's meeting, that would be great. And then at that point, I can go ahead and next Tuesday. So, next meeting. Oh, the select board or comp? The select board. This has to go to the select board as a recommendation.

We have a comp plan meeting, too. It is. Then I think it's next Tuesday, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Do I have somewhere to be next Tuesday? So, that would be that would be best because then we've got a few other places it's got to go for review before

and what's the deadline to get on the warrant? [sighs] I don't remember and I'm sorry I can get that for you, but I saw it coming to me off the top of my head. I have to re-remember it every spring and I forget it immediately after town meeting. Is this something that we think is doable or do we think we would like to save this for next time?

No, we have to get this in. Yeah, we have. Yeah. Not an option. There's one other inclusion I wanted in this. Yeah. [laughter] So, they're taking orders. Yeah. I've asked the board uh it's it's going to go into um the fees portion. I asked the select board at the last select board meeting to um allow for an exemption of building permit fees for anyone whose house is burned down in town that was their principal residence and intends to rebuild. So we have a certain exemptions. There's an exemption for municipality from the fee but not the permit. I would like to also include a line that exempts someone whose house is burnt from the fee but not the permit.

throw in there, right? She's frowning. There is a What are you talking? Um I'm not seeing an exemption for the town. I think under fees that there's a there should be. So I'm under administrative procedures fees. So this is article six conditional use.

No, it should. Oh, you want the building piece? Yeah, building fees. Let's see. I think it's down in administrative article eight. Article eight. Okay. So, no meetings are reflected next week for planning board uh for comp planning or select or anybody.

Cool. What's that? There aren't any up. Doesn't it come out like Friday or [clears throat] municipal? Oh, so it says municipal or public education structures. No fee. Yes, you got it. Should be a Slugman's meeting next Tuesday. There should be

it's not on the calendar. It's not on the calendar. It's like stuck in between websites. I think is not helping. Okay. [clears throat] Calendar is not and our comp meeting is the 6th, right? Monday. That's what I was looking to confirm. I think it's Monday, not Tuesday.

I didn't take John's word for it cuz he showed up tonight at 6:30. [laughter] It's Monday. I did too. I But I was sitt in my car cuz I couldn't remember. Was it 6:30 or 7? It's Monday. The [laughter] cop is Monday next week. You say you can never put on.

I'm done talking. If anybody else has anything else they want. Well, yeah. So, I don't go home. Maybe it will now. um mortorium? How did How did that go? Only by fire or by other natural disaster. Well, how did that go? Say other natural disaster.

There's no discussion from what I saw really. was like, "Okay." Well, I didn't get I didn't say other natural disasters to the board. Okay. I only said fire and they said, "Okay." Well, we're submitting the whole thing and you know, we just

Well, the only concern I have is if we have a natural disaster, we're going to have a lot of houses destroyed. If they get a big flood or a hurricane or something like that, you're going to and it's you're going to that's that's a little bit too much to consume

just for the fee. So, under residential structures, it says 25 cents per square foot of floor area. Minimum fee $100. This fee shall be waved for reconstruct. I spelled that wrong. Any residential structure. Any any principal residential structure.

You want it to be your house, not your rental house. any residential structure that was the applicant's primary residence. Yes. was the applicant perimeter. So does it have to be 100% destroyed? I was just thinking exactly that when you roof down a lot.

Yeah. To tear [laughter] down and rebuild because they're going to wind up with with higher taxes when they're done rebuilding because they're going to have a new house that's going to be evaluated higher. Does it have to be within a certain amount of time?

I would Well, maybe I suppose if they pull the permit within one year. A year. This fee shall be waved for a permit to reconstruct any residential structure d completely structure was the applicant's primary residence and where the application is submitted

within one year of the fire. What's the password to get on? Someone can do it. [laughter] I don't believe. Thank you, Ann. You got it. Um, well, as far as the pod ordinance went, seemed like they took it under advisement. I guess they wanted to think about it. I didn't get much feedback. No,

it was pretty much inconclusive. I hoped [laughter] I hoped it would, but I don't know. I think maybe it'll just keep keep posting it. So, what's next on that? Well, if they don't recommend it forward, it can't come up at town meeting if the select you've only got three ways for it to come to town meeting. Either the select board recommends that it be put on the docket. um the uh

public can petition the select board to put it on the docket or the public can go out and get signatures and have it placed on the docket. Mhm. So if the plan if the select board doesn't take your recommendation that it be included and included, the only other way is to get out on the street and try to get signatures to have it included.

It won't have time. Well, we lost enough time now. I'm not I guess you'd have to ask Ruth about how much time would be necessary and I don't know exactly how many signatures are needed either. I'm not I'm not up on that part.

Two months. No, no. I think it might be percentage of the last election. It's a percentage of the last federal election which was the one we just had. So gubanatorial, right? Or right or gubanatorial. But sorry, what what are you talking about? [laughter]

We at the last planning board has been legalized in the state of Maine and the towns under the state law have the opportunity to ban it. Okay. to ban establishments, retail establishments from their community. But they have to enact an ordinance to do that. And if they don't enact an ordinance in time and the state has licensing laws that come into effect and people meet those licensing laws, you could have establishments in town and some folks may not want that. Okay.

Some may. So Todd went with it before the select board on Tuesday or Thursday, I guess it was. and submitted a request and a sample uh ordinance to ban retail establishments and dollars. Yeah. Bring your own bone part social club.

Bring your own bone. The Bob. But right now, so they the state isn't approving any licenses until February of 2018. Correct. So you've got that. We got some time, but we only got one town meeting. Yeah, right. I know. How do we go to a special town meeting,

right? And special town meetings are expensive. Yep. It wasn't that expensive, though. It's like 600 bucks, man. It wasn't that crazy expensive when we asked the question what a special town meeting. Oh, really? Yeah. Everyone always talks about, oh, we don't want the cost, but then

Well, but you got the clerk and all the other folks that are involved. So, there's a lot of labor in town that doesn't come directly out of the check that has to be applied to it. Yeah, we priced it once. I last time I heard a number on it, it really wasn't like, wow, that should not the cost of a new fire truck, you know.

Was that check to the school? What's that? Was that renting the school? No, no, no. When the last time the conversation about a special town, the cost the it's the the clerk's. Oh, okay. The ballot, the you know, noticing,

right? Yeah. um protesting and so does that just include retail or or manufacturing also? Yeah. Okay. All of it. Well, some of the manufacturing gets a little bit growing gets a little bit funny because some of it falls under the medical

the personal use. It won't control the the retail the using it as a business essentially [clears throat] is what it's looking to curtail. And from this community standpoint, I think, you know, the interesting thing is it was since I've lived in town, they've issued their first liquor license in Durham.

Yeah. I mean, I remember the petition. I remember the petition. This was a dry town 12 years ago. I don't Oh, not even that. Maybe shorter than that. Was it? Cuz I remember the petition. I was living in the town with the petition. Is it seven?

Seven years ago. Yeah. I was going to say I think it was We moved in. Had you been here? I think we had just moved in and we were like just turned 21. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. That was it. One of the first things I did when I lived here was I went to get some coffee brandy.

Mr. Man, we drink a lot of it. [laughter] I'm ready to go home. Do you guys want to look quickly at a few of the changes that I got around to making? Yeah. I don't know how to get it up there. Do you have the um just shut mine off?

Got to plug in. Do you have a projection availability in with yours? I don't know what that means. I bet you do. It's a touch screen. She's got to have everything. I don't know what Jul can you pull it up for. No. No. [laughter]

I just shut mine off or I You going to put it on the Wi-Fi? Check my Wi-Fi. Or are you going to do it by the hard cable? Well, how did you put yours on? When I did I used the cable on my desk. Do we have a cable? Yes. Do it wirelessly [laughter] too. I mentioned

it's rather short here. A real text. Oh, so if I just spot actually sit in Paul's spot. Sit in spot. That's a pretty nice one. What do you want? I know. Six years ago. Seven years ago. New to Maine. New to Maine. Welcome. Really? Where'd you come from?

Providence Round. Uh, I'm from Massachusetts, so yeah, it's all good. And I moved here from Arkansas, so you know. But I am from Maine. I'm from Maine. I was born here. Take that away from [laughter] where the mini HDMI and that's the big one.

Yep. We got a lot of lot of relatives in Note. Oh yeah. Camden area. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I worked. I lived up there for years. Yeah. I like it up there. Oh, what do you need? Yeah. It's pretty. We need to go from Do you know any of the bald ones?

Big HDMI to little mini from No. No. Friendship baby. Friendship. No. No. Friendship's right there. Yeah. Friendship power. [laughter] No, I don't think I know any of the Baldwins. I know a lot of winch and batches and um

gosh that's the name of my high school winch batch well it wasn't batch we call witch and boach but Oh really there's a lot of them you don't have any way to go out I don't know look under settings look under um your display

would it just be at display settings. Wouldn't it treat a projector like any other like another screen? But I'd have to be hooked up to it. Yes. But somehow he [laughter] gets a he gets a Wi-Fi that has Wi-Fi capability.

But I can't even connect to Wi-Fi. So, how am I going to connect to that? You don't need the Wi-Fi to do to get to connect to that. It has some kind of It has its own thing. It's like a It's like a Bluetooth sort of type thing.

You got I'm sorry. I'm not going to find it here. I don't even know what I'm looking for. Um, I have to start my computer up to tell you. Go under display. Try and Where's your settings? Just go to the box bottom left. Okay, this is perhaps not worth it.

Do you I fixed the sign ordinance. I fixed the density. Well, sort of. I have some questions on the density. And I started working on the criteria, the conditional use criteria. Do you think I'm making them less? Do you think you could make a presentation to the select Tuesday?

Probably not. Frankly, projecting. Yeah, maybe. It's been like the month from [laughter] Okay. Cuz I haven't heard. Not really. So actually I think we've kind of had one master document and maybe it bounced back people have made changes on but

but I was at the chamber annual dinner anyway so I couldn't have come but would we be able to use Dropbox or that that's probably is that allowed by the planning board to use something like Dropbox? Well, I mean they're public records. Okay,

that's the only thing. But I know there was a lot of questions about who email and stuff. I mean, we can't conduct business through [snorts] Dropbox if we're just sharing documents that become a public camera maybe record. That's fine.

Is that um How do you want to get the ref the giant boxes? Do you guys have a pickup or anything? Is that how big they are? They're pretty big. I mean, they'll um love they won't they'll fit in like an SUV. We do have a truck, but they won't fit in my car.

How big's your car? It's just an ultra one of these. Just a regular I mean you might be able to fit one at a time in your car. Okay. If you want to make two trips. I can bring my husband's truck. There you go. What I can do is When do you think you'll be coming by? Like during the day or

just Oh, I don't know. I was I don't know what your schedule's like right now. Well, cuz if we're not home, I can just leave them. We've got an overlay at our house. We can just leave them there. Okay. Or if we're around just the you're

these days, you know. um entertaining a toddler. I have a lot going on. [laughter] We can talk afterwards. Okay. Um and whatever works. They're just hanging out. So, but they would be like fabulous little playhouses for a kiddo.

They're refrigerator box. They're actually We bought love seats from IKEA. What is it called? Oh, nice. And so, they're like they're probably like laying flat. They're probably like this wide and like this tall. It's always good to have things to entertain a toddler in the middle of winter.

And they like you can open up the flaps to create even more room. And like they'd be really cool for a kiddo. Why don't you just use a plug? Because we don't have the right. We don't have the right cord. We can't email it to each other because

there's no Wi-Fi. Do we have a flash drive? road. [laughter] I got Wi-Fi. Oh, wait. Perfect. got Wi-Fi. Get your laptop back up. We can plug mine. You You can plug yours in. Yeah. Okay, we'll just do that then. Um I will just give you the most recent version then.

You're going to use John's? Yeah. Oh, all right. Did you get onto the projector before? Yeah, [clears throat] I did on the projector last last time we did this Disaster. I don't know where I saved it. of the shop. Oh no.

Rock like this. I lose that big right in my notam. Oh jeez. A it's going to really hurt in the morning. Yeah, snow on it. It makes a Yeah, I did that a couple weeks ago when I was holding CL. anything. It says remove the right protection or use another disc. Oh,

is there a little switch on the side of that one? Maybe. the road standard? Uh I need to figure out what was going on in John's head. We're going to be here a while cuz he clearly put a lot of work in it. Like there are all these like

I don't remember anymore cuz [laughter] it's been like 4 months since it we had all these new That's why we'll be here a while. No one will know the answer. Even John, you had all these like notes in the ordinance itself and then you pulled everything out into an appendix

because we put it all in because we were trying to put it all in one place cuz it was in subdivision, it was in performance standards, it was in condition. So, do I just delete where you had the notes? Yeah, I think so. Oh,

one set of road standard. Right. Right. That was the goal. I can just get it display. I should probably save the rest of my crap before I know what I got to do. Hold your laptop up really high to it. Oh man, [laughter] too many down.

Nice. Cool. So, do you mind if I hold this cable could be a little shorter? You try actually not [laughter] why what Oh, yours is touchreen. [laughter] No touchcreen. I'm not not that lucky. I think my next computer will have a touch screen. That's pretty cool.

So, computer will have a computer. So, the biggest [laughter] I think the biggest changes I've made [cough] since we last looked at this and I haven't redlined anything because it would make everybody crazy. Well, that's what I did on mine. It made you crazy. So, [laughter]

correct. Yeah. You get red and green out of other stuff, right? So, if you remember, we um we talked about the Supreme Court decision a while ago, and Paul sort of took a stab at drafting the sign ordinance, um which I didn't like, so [laughter] I rewrote it. Not that I'm a control freak or anything. Um so, this is what I came up with.

I have no idea. So easy. I just give her something and she doesn't cuz she has to change what I gave her. [laughter] That's the whole just give her something, right? kind of like a Oh, that ain't working. I got to rewrite it.

Okay. Um, we're still on um TV. We are. We know. Yeah. So, basically, the Supreme Court case said that you can't distinguish between signs based on their content. And so, our old or our existing ordinance has things relating to directory signs and yard sale signs and things like that. And so the sort of general rule in interpreting this case and applying this case is that if you have to read the sign to apply the law, you can't do it. Um so this is sort of what we came up with and do has come up well state statute has changed somewhat for temporary signs so that it'll be like political signs and things like that in the right of way which is different from on someone's property. So this is what I took based on Paul's and came up with. So we've always had the requirement that they can't be illuminated, which by the way has anyone driven by the Durham Leisure Center.

Um sign shall not exceed 24 square ft in total, which may be divided between up to two signs on the same lot, which was existing. We just tweaked it a little bit to make it more clear. Um the height requirement was always in there. Placement on of temporary signs in town road. That should say right away.

Leisure Center. Is it uh flashing, moving, or It is. You mean the the campground? Yeah. The one right across from my house. Yeah. Yeah. My son, every time I drive by, Mom, look. The lights. The lights. And then if they're not on, Mom, where are the lights?

Yeah. They're like It's like that Christmas thing, you know, where they go. Yeah. They like swirl. Yeah. I was trying to decide if that was on purpose or it was just bad lighting. [laughter] Okay. And it wasn't I don't think it was like that last year.

It started with the new sign and and new lights. But I I I have seen that for a while. Obviously, it would never I never thought of this. [laughter] Like I was like, "Oh, yeah. I totally did." I was like, um, so title 231 1913A of the state statute addresses those temporary signs. They there [clears throat] it's written to hit things like yard sale signs and political signs and things like that. So that only applies to state roads. So what we did is basically just took it and said, "Okay, whatever rules are going to apply to state road rightaways will also apply to town road rightaways." Um, we talked about whether we want it to apply to flags because what if I just put a big sign and hung it on a flag and you guys said you didn't care.

That wording though, this section shall not apply to the following to flag. Yeah, because there were others to flags. I also did this at like midnight last night. Um, and this section shall also not apply to signs erected or required by governmental bodies. So, does anybody have questions or comments or changes?

Next. Okay. The next bigger piece that I tackled was the density, which we had so much fun. Do you guys remember the fun chart? Oh, yeah. So, well, let me start on the one that I did not screw up. And then we [laughter] can talk about the one that I've been having trouble with. So, rural residential. Um, I took it and put in a chart. Hopefully that makes a little more clear than what we've got.

So, minimum lot size per dwelling is 90,000 square feet. So, a dwelling is defined as sort of a self-contained building. Um, so if you had two single families, that's two dwellings. So, minimum lot size per dwelling is 90,000 square feet, which is like two acres, right?

Just slightly over. Um, minimum road frontage is 300 ft for everything. In rural residential, you can't have more than a two unit. Front line setbacks, sideline setbacks, rear line setbacks are all the same. Structure height is the same. Um,

and then it's minimum density that I changed. So, we had talked about we we've had that section in our ordinance that we've always struggled with whether they apply to accessory apartments or not. Um, and what we came up with was

it's going to be 90,000 square feet per dwelling unit. So, if you have a full dwelling unit, so maybe you've got a duplex, you got to have 180,000 square ft. If one of your dwelling units is an accessory apartment, and we had talked about I need to do this in the definitions, distinguish between a dwelling unit and accessory apartment. And we had talked about making an accessory apartment either a studio or a one-bedroom, whereas a dwelling unit would be um more than that. I don't know how we're going to do that in the definitions, but that's what we had talked about. Mhm. Maximum lot coverage for impervious surface they fixed because in both sections in the growth district and the rural residential we had had that you could have structure coverage of up to like 30% for municipal

but impervious surface of only 25%. So that didn't make sense. So I got rid of the structure coverage and just put in the impervious surface. Um, and this one has a minimum building envelope and then I put all the the notes into footnotes to try

if someone doesn't have a for 40,000 basically a buildable area of an acre on a on a lot they can't build on. That's that's the building and that's there. I pulled that from the current ordinance. So what does that do to that lot over on

Patriot Way? Is there 40,000 square feet on that one? Isn't that your lot on the corner over there? Jeez, it must be in the building anymore. It's always been 40,000. Okay. I'd have to look. I haven't got all kinds of wetland and stuff on that one lot. There's some stuff in there that restricts that build, but that's subdivision. So, that was already approved.

That was approved. Yeah. So, if they screw it up, it's their problem. [snorts] thing. I just rearranged it. But I messed up. I was having a hard time figuring out the density and how to express that because if you we decided if you have one unit or two units, you're only required to have 90,000 square feet. So, it's not a per dwelling unit density at that point. Um,

wrong and I I haven't thought enough about it to get it right. So in according to that right there with one and two family with one and two dwelling units per lot, you need 90,000 square feet but 500 ft of road front, right?

500 25 minimum road frontage, one to two dwelling units. You can do a duplex on 250 ft of road frontage. Is that right? Right. Okay. Maybe I should say one or two instead of one. Yeah. [snorts] Um but the density I think everyone gets [clears throat] it but it's not expressed correctly because density is per unit typically. Um

density is usually considered per unit, right? So that looks we want the six. Not really. The one and two dwelling units and 90,000 ft. What did you say? 90,000 is required for one and 90 keeping the same density for two,

right? So you don't need a bigger lot. You can do a duplex on a single lot and time, right? But density is typically expressed per unit. Basically, I just I gotta figure out how to The lawyer in me needs to figure out how to make it correctly expressed by density. [snorts]

Well, can we say for the one one or two dwelling units, can we say something like 90,000 minimum? So, what So, what what if you didn't try to include one and two in the same thing and just put in another line item? One dwelling unit's 90,000 square ft. Two dwelling units is 110,000 square ft. Anything over three,

but it's not. We decided to leave it. Oh, all right. So, what's there? So, one dwelling unit says 90,000. Two dwelling units says 90,000 because what's in there now is 90,000 plus 2,000 square feet for each additional unit.

20,000, I'm sorry, and 25 ft of road frontage. Right. And we I think we tweaked that slightly. We decided to increase density in the growth system. Yeah. [snorts] Above two. Okay. in the current ordinance based on a duplex or No, [clears throat]

it says multifamily housing density. That was the whole thing that got some Well, and that's the problem is it was just it was [snorts] it was written poorly, which is why we kept effing it up when we Yeah, because the duplex is different than two separate structures,

right? You just lost a break. I think Ann wanted to almost completely strike that duplex piece, didn't she? Well, we went into the definitions and there was some confusion there because it asked there's what it was is it used multifamily um housing in one section and some other

wording in another. Well, it refers to two family in some places and duplex in other places. That's right. I feel like what it's been a while. I feel like what we decided is that we didn't we didn't want to differentiate between a duplex and two dwellings.

Well, I think we do. I mean, so a dwelling is different than a dwelling unit because we've still got a 90,000 square foot minimum lot size, which is different than density um per dwelling. So, if you have two separate dwellings and if you look at the definition of dwelling, you're going to have to have 180,000 square ft. So if you want your house and two dwelling units equals 8,000 square feet.

We're just not calling it a duplex. Two dwelling units. Yes. Okay. Can you roll out the lot size because I think it just says lot size, right? Says minimum lot. No, it's minimum size per dwelling. Yeah, minimum lot size per dwelling.

I got you. Okay. So, we have to make sure that we are clear on our definition of dwelling unit. So, one dwelling is 90,000 square ft. Two dwellings is 90,000 square feet. Is that That's not two. No, two dwellings would be 180,000 square feet. And that's the problem is we're really trying to get to lot size, but we're using density, which is a weird

Yeah. Which is just a weird way to do it. Yeah. Should we do it differently then? [snorts and laughter] one one more. Yellow. I confused myself. All right. Dwelling units. two dwelling units or one dwelling unit and one accessory apartment is 90,000 square feet,

So, a dwelling and a dwelling unit are two different things. Correct. Yeah. A dwelling unit is basically an independent living a group of rooms that's intended for independent living. Whereas a dwelling could house multiple dwelling units.

Yeah. apartment houses has mult has multiple units, but it's a dual, so I'll figure it out. Um, I know Todd hated this, but um, haven't made it to the others. What else did I change? Probably it. Oh, I started messing with the you know how we currently have in our ordinance we have the approval criteria and then we have the performance standards that are supposed to match with the with the approval criteria but they don't.

Um so I've been trying to fix that. So um for example the proposed use will not result in undue air pollution and then what we need to consider in um in evaluating that. The piece I struggled with is so the proposed use will not result in undue air pollution. That was a a a criteria that could not be waved.

However, these sort of um factors could be waved in writing by us. Uh so what I did [cough] as I said the factors to be considered is met may be waved by the planning board upon request of the applicant. Honestly I don't know if we even need to do that. If there are factors to be considered I don't think we have to find that each one is met. Um but you guys can tell me.

You need to fix that second paragraph. Go up one. I do. Yeah. A waiver may only be granted if in all instances the burden of proof shall be on the applicant and such burden of proof shall include So this is what happens when I drafted.

It's all right. [laughter] was left from a comp plan. If I had known you could drop something. I drank about six cups of tea the other day and was pacing around the office for about two hours. Finally Shannon said, "What is the matter with you? You're pacing everywhere." I think I drank two cups of tea. [cough]

but I guess my question is whether that waiver piece is even required. So what they have to show for example in this first one is the proposed use will not result in undue air pollution. We have to consider factors A, B and C. So we [snorts] don't have to find all of them.

You have to right? No. I mean, if we just have to consider them, I think that's different and we can put in language that, you know, they're guidelines or whatever, but at the end of the day, what we have to make a finding on is that the proposed use will not result in undue air pollution. And that's sort of how our ordinance is currently set up, but it requires a written waiver from us. So which we haven't been doing

um you know so instead of making a finding specifically that emissions of any particular matter gous material will not cause soiling of any material beyond the lot line we haven't been specifically considering that factor and or waving it

so what you have there is good then right shall consider yeah and we can make it yeah maybe we can make it clear that they're so we could consider we're considering in writing and you're finding a fact just needs said your conclusionary statements just need to state it. That's writing, right? Doesn't that [snorts]

No. As our ordinance is currently written, we should have been making findings on each of these subriteria, right? On each of these performance standards or giving them a written waiver in writing. You don't need to show that, you know, particular matter will not cause soiling beyond the lot line. And they they it was not just that we had to wave it in writing. They had to request a waiver in writing.

That's right. they have to request it in writing, which nobody's doing. And we're not making these specific findings. I mean, that's not how we're applying the ordinance. We're saying, okay, does it result in undo air pollution? And usually we're like, no, this is an accessory department.

Yeah. Yes. Um, stop cooking beans, [laughter] chain smokers, I don't know. Yeah. So, undo water pollution. I pulled that in. Water, sufficient water. um to provide for the needs. I pulled those criteria in. So, the soil piece is a little tough because we have general performance standards. So, I've just been trying to to smush these together and and streamline it. And obviously, I did not get all that far.

How much more do you have? All of these. And then Paul wrote something on landscaping and buffering that also does not make any sense to me. See, you just put it up. [laughter] He was supposed to rewrite it. It wasn't as a group. I thought we came up with something as a group that we were all like, "Yeah, good."

Paul maybe presented it to us in one of the meetings. We put it up because it was in the version I had that was up on the screen at one point. Yeah. And and wanted to tweak it a little because I have it separately. Abby, you emailed it to me separately. I don't think I ever saw it in the ordinance. And that's what I'm struggling with. It's not that they don't make sense, it's that they don't make sense within the

I went through I tried to reorganize the ordinance doing just exactly what you're trying to do, right? And I don't know if that's what I got to John or not, but I don't think I got mine for you. Yeah, I think I sent the version that I had worked on to you two.

Yeah. And I got back your red lines in it as well as a couple separate which didn't make sense to me. And then I got back a separate sheet from you on landscaping and yeah I just took and rewrote it so that you could look at it and if you liked it put it in. If you didn't change it and then put it in

basically just fix it. Ann sent you a bunch of mumbbo jumbo and Well, no it was bad. No. [laughter] No. I mean it all makes sense and they're good standards. They just um I've got to figure [clears throat] out how to tweak things

where to put it. Right. Right. And just make it fit in because we've moved a lot of stuff and I think the goal is to continue to move stuff into the general performance standards. And so when we go through our conditional use checklist, we'll go through the specific conditional uses, but we'll also have to go through the general performance standards. Oh, I know what confused you about what I sent cuz I took everything out [snorts] that was in all the different places of the ordinance and then stuck them in one piece of paper

kind of like I did with the roads. But then when you put that piece and then I and then I did them in green and red and various things and the list looked at that and threw in the trash. [laughter] Didn't throw it in the trash. It was on my desktop.

Still. So, um, yeah, there's just there's a lot of work and and it's hard because we do it in bits and pieces and we we talk about it and then we don't think about it for two months. I know. And then you forget what you talked about and then you forget what you thought about.

All right. Then it's two months later again. What do you need us to do, Ann? Anything? I was just going to ask that. I don't know. Somebody else do it. We're going to have to understand what's going on in your head. I know, right? [laughter]

You're trying to understand in John's head. So then, how about we go to work for you in Poland? [laughter] You stay home. Yeah. Seriously, if I if I have one full day on just to do this, I could get it done. We'll do your job.

Your car ain't going to stop tomorrow morning. You have any sick neighbors? We're all going to end up being a horse. [laughter] if John will give her a ride home, we'll just go fly in all four retire. Uh I can work from home. [laughter]

No, without Wi-Fi. [clears throat] So attached garage. Uh oh, Paul. The thing I needed from you is erosion [clears throat] control as well. Thought they said real. [laughter] I cannot read from here. Really? Did Did I redo that one?

No. Are you sure? Yes. You did. This is what you gave me. Oh, my battery is running low. [snorts] I didn't save it. Maybe it's in my email. Do we want our battery to go completely dead or we won't give her power? [laughter]

Give her power. So, um, so if you guys are okay with the signage and the density pieces that I put in, um, I can fix that one density piece and just keep plugging away at the conditional use, rearranging that, and then I'll figure out where your road standards go.

haven't been either traveling or working. So maybe I'll get stuff done. Sounds like fun. You wait. Yeah. And then it's like three more weekends after that before I have another weekend off. So know what our time frame is to get to town meeting. I don't know where you want to go from here. um

home. Yeah, desperately. [snorts] So, so is there a possibility to bring it to the selectman Tuesday or is it too much to do? Well, we'd have to vote on it first. The planning board would have to vote to accept it first. So, what we can do is we can see if I get my act together and actually get it to you guys this weekend. And if we do, maybe we can hold a, you know, 20 minute meeting on

on Monday, you know, or whatever. I don't know. Come to the comp plan meeting. Yeah, I plan on going anywhere. So, cool. Yeah. 6:30, right, [laughter] I don't even know. We'll both be at there at 6:30 and no one else. I think our call plans are 6:30.

6:30. This is the only 7:00 meeting. Do you know when the meeting is? No, I don't know. It was on Monday. You have a meeting on Monday. Okay. Time apparently is 6:30. 6:30. Okay. Thank you. [laughter] For what? The comp plan.

Yeah. I don't know. I'm not on. So Soil erosion for the rest of time. I feel not helpful. All right. So are we good for tonight? I don't know why I can't copy this to my desk. We'll review. Motion to adjurnn. Yes. Do I hear a motion to adjurnn?

Motion to adjurnn. I second. All those in favor? Thank you.