TranscriptJanuary 25, 2021 ~ Budget Committee Recommendations

She is not. We're not going to live stream, but I will record it and we will put it up later. Okay. So, are we ready to start? Yes. All right. So, uh tonight is Monday, January 25th. The time is 6:33. This is a um meeting of the budget committee. We

are doing just uh we are we have already sent our forwarded our recommendations for the 2021 budget to the select board and the select board has asked us to or has say requested that we do a follow-up meeting um and formulate some ideas

um regarding what changes we might like to see or documents we might like to add um or questions that we think department head should be prepared to answer. Um, and all this information they're going to forward I'm I believe they're planning to forward it to the town manager um for consideration

uh for changes when this committee meets next year to review the next budget. So basically it's just a discussion and what's good in this kind of a a format is um sometimes one or two ideas will spurn an even better idea and so it's good to hear each person's ideas because um someone else may actually think of something to improve on that idea. Uh so um there are six of us uh there are two members who are unable to join us tonight and Lee Fischer um is working until 7 and if she can she'll join us um

when she gets done with work. So with that I'll kick it off. Does anybody want to start some opening comments? I do have one question. Did we send a summary of our reasonings to the budget committee? I actually have that ready to go. I was waiting for the spreadsheet that Ruth sent us this afternoon to make sure that the numbers I had um agreed with hers. Um and what I

was thinking about doing if if this meeting doesn't take too long is just reviewing with you the reasoning I was going to forward to the select board. Thank you. future budget committee meetings re as far as um changes we'd like to see, documents we'd like to be added, um things along that nature that we feel would help us be more productive in our budget negotiations. I see Lois's hand up. We'll start with you. So, the other day when we were when we were meeting, what I heard people saying and I wrote down was that we needed to ask for more specific breakdowns in the budget for the next year. So, I think it particularly came up with the fire department, but if you look at the um the public works one, it probably could be there. And certainly the um cemeteries one, I mean, you know, we didn't know whether they'd even checked with public works. So, I mean, I think more specific breakdowns on the spreadsheet with the

numbers, but also maybe explanations of why. So, Rick Emmens um actually agrees with you. He did send me an email saying the following. Um he thinks the department heads could include more lines in their labor budgets to help show where payroll is going. For example, chief could break down payroll into such categories as training hours, fire related calls, EMS calls, predium staff, and administrative staff. And he thought something similar with the public works might work as well. He'd like to see budget lines include payroll for plowing hours, ditching hours, mowing hours, paving hours, and the such and the like.

broke it down into more details, but similar to what both Rick and Lois was saying, I agree. I was also thinking along those same lines, um maybe required is a strong word, but I would like to require that there's a representative at the um initial selectman budget meeting when we're going over some of them because then we could have asked for instance this year we could have spoken to the cemetery crew and asked them um you know more details about their equipment request. We could have we've had the benefit in the past of having the planning board member be part of either the selectman or the budget. this year they weren't and I noticed that missing as far as getting a lot of information about the planning board's budget as well. So,

and do you think it would work better if they were present at the when we do that initial meeting in which both the select board and the budget committee meet together or are you suggesting just when it's time for the budget committee to do its deliberations? My recommendation would be the mutual meetings in the beginning.

long as everybody's looked at it. I mean, like sometimes I might not look at something, not on these because I did look at these ahead of time, but on some things I don't get to it until just before and so I really wouldn't have formulated the questions yet. Whereas if I'd gone through the first meeting with them, then the second meeting with them, I would have already had the chance to formulate my questions like tonight. I mean, it would be nice to have. So, you know, we've talked about it, so now let's answer the questions. So, right.

So, I think I I agree with you that the first one's important, but I almost think that it would be nice to have somebody at all of them. So, I I have to say I agree. If it was a perfect world, they would be present at all of them. Um, I think to me this year didn't go as well for me as past years. Um, in part being Zoom meetings, in part extra outside issues, but um, you know, the the budget committee and the selectman, I don't know what the timeline is. things seem to go a lot faster this year, but just getting that information ahead of time so that you know I think it is our responsibility as the budget committee to try and look at things ahead of time and it's been evident in the years that I've been on who has taken the time to look at the budget and who is looking at the budget for the first time when we get to a meeting. And I know even for myself this year because I didn't get a chance to really look at the budget

ahead of time um my thought process it was very evident but I think it definitely the more we can do a little bit of homework ahead of time will help us at all of the meetings including um understanding the way that we also email our questions ahead of time too so that maybe if they can't be at the next meeting they at least had a chance to answer our questions. I think what helped uh because in the past people don't haven't done their homework as you said um but this year we had five or I think it was six members of the budget committee who watched the select boards meeting in which they were making their initial presentations. Uh normally, you know, I mean, even though those meetings are always broadcast, I there have been fewer people who would tune into the, you know, the cable TV channel to watch them. um and even fewer people who maybe looked over the spreadsheets uh prior to the budget committee's first

meeting. But the fact that we had six members, you know, who already knew what the select board's recommendations were going to be when we started our deliberations, I think that um might have helped to save some time. For me personally, Zoom's been amazing in that regard. Um, cable TV. I I can't

get to the TV all the time for one. Um, two, I can't even promise you in the future I'll have access to the cable TV channel, but whether I'm I I was listening to one of the meetings. Um, I'm not sure it was even for Durham, but I was in my car with the in my car phone doing the Zoom listening to the meeting, you know. So, it really opens up the availability of of attending at least one sense um to get more information.

Go ahead, Paul. What if we were to ask for a conveyance letter from the cemetery uh group and then if the conveyance letter isn't uh sufficient when we receive it, we could ask for them to come and for an explanation. And and can you define a conveyance letter, please? Well, basically, you know, they're saying this is our budget. So, tell us about it. What's changed from last year? You know, why is it gone up or down? What's different about the budget?

So, with the rationale is what you're saying. The rationale. Exactly. Yeah. That's a I think many towns do it that way. Just a really, you know, a short letter and then if there are still questions, we could still ask them at that first meeting. uh let let the administrator or the manager know that we'd like to talk with them to answer our questions.

focus on one department with regard to I heard some great suggestions with regard to public works and fire. But so that we are able to nail down some specifics. Could we focus on one department, you know, maybe fire? I'm not sure what you mean. Well, right now in terms of some of these um suggestions for uh for for the uh for budget for budget lines, one of the things I heard and one of the things that was discussed at the last meeting was the fact that the fire department budget, it's a large budget. It's almost $500,000, but it's only half a page. Now, go back and look at admin. The admin budget's significantly smaller. It's a page and a half. Um, you know, I don't know. Fire department budgets I'm familiar with of that size are probably more like two pages long. So, I think this one is very short. And the problem is is everything is grouped together in these lines. We need to break out. Well, that is partly

the select boards doing. Um, I'm sure if we ask Allan to think back amongst his 30 years on this board, um, we used to get a much more detailed report and it was at the select boards and perhaps even Kevin's request that they didn't need all that information. It was at their suggest that they start combining lines and give us the report that we had. Maybe Ruth can remembers that as well. But I believe it was the select board whose request was for them to minimize the lines. I see Allan has his hand.

That's true, Mel. Granted, we used to the budgets that were submitted to us specifically, I would say the fire department, it was extremely detailed and but I have to caution all of us that granted we're making a decision, we're making a decision on one final line. And when we went into the detail, there were many times when our recommendations were, well, cut this, cut that, cut that. And it you can do that as a budget committee, but when the town's people come and vote, they're load they're voting on the final line. And one of my one of my concerns and I keep hearing that people are saying, well, I want to break down in the hours. If all well and good, if you do this, you're going to need to do it from all department. You just can't single out a one department. And if we're doing this, what is our bottom line? What are we trying to accomplish by doing that? I don't I certainly don't want

I don't mean this in a negative fashion. I don't want to see us trying to micromanage departments. If we don't have confidence in a manager, then we should express that in a professional manner. Yeah. Um, I guess my comment there would be for example, and I I agree with all of the things you said, Allan, I think they're very wise. Um, but I guess for

example, for the fire department, um, for example, I'd like to know, well, you know, how much of that labor is pdeiums? How much is call pay? and how much are officer stipens um and how much is meeting or training pay and I'd like to have some sense of for example what they're being paid. I think that's reasonable to have some sense of for example you know what's the hour excuse me what's the hourly rate for our prediums and I'm assuming it's probably a range it's probably a range based on their level of training but to have some sense of what the the pay rates are for example I think that's a you know for me that's a reasonable request for a budget committee so that we have some oversight, you know, some oversight of uh of town functions. And I guess one of my concerns is, you know, this is the budget. This isn't just the budget we approve, but this is the budget the selectment approve. So, um, you know, I guess my question is

then if it's not in the budget, who understands this other than the fire chief? moment. So, you know, I think that's kind of my major question is if it's not in the budget, who understands it other than the fire chief? Because again, this is the same document that the selectman use. It's not just about us, the budget

committee, um, and our recommendation. It's about o the overall transparency and um of the of our financial management and if this information isn't in the budget then where is it and who looks at it? Paul, what would change regarding the budget committee's deliberations were we to have at least the additional information regarding labor? I agree with Alan. When you start if you start showing everything in the budget, we're going to go back to the way it was and people are going to we're going to spend longer meet we're going to have longer meetings because people are complaining about all the various line items. So let's say we just asked for a breakdown regarding labor as you said you know how much is being paid per DM and what's going for training and what's going for the calls

if you had all that information how would that have changed our meetings um well again Milt I think the important thing is to look beyond the budget committee and to ask the question if it's not in the budget then who other than for example in this case if we're talking about the fire department then who other than the fire chief knows what those wage rates are and other than the person who's writing the checks in town hall um but that you know currently the person who writes the checks for example isn't the manage isn't a a manager uh so I think it's important not just for the budget committee but for the selectment for that information for that information to be publicly available for it to be available so that the people who are charged with managing the department on this next level beyond the fire chief understand what the costs are. Um and and I I think that I'm not sure if anything would change. It would

depend on um if we saw it would certainly give us a greater understanding of the budget, but I'm not sure necessarily anything would change. It would depend of course um but we would certainly have hopefully a greater understanding of the budget and not have to ask so many question questions. Now that said as Allan said these are all bottom line budgets. So at the end of the day our vote is to approve an amount for the overall budget and and that's it. But even even though we're approving a bottom line amount, doesn't mean that we shouldn't have uh a little more information. And again, you know, this is a $500,000 budget. Um I just don't

think half a page is really enough to be able to to evaluate it. And it just uh makes it, you know, I think more challenging to keep track of what's what. And you have to ask 10,000 questions to get, you know, to get the answers. Why not lay it out a little better right up front?

that detailed information, granted it gives you a so much of that is really it's going to be historical information and it allows you to feel more comfortable about making that decision, but I I guess I mean Milt has been on this committee for 21 years. He's in his second 22nd year and he and I have served together a lot on this committee and maybe it's my confidence and experience of knowing what had been presented in past years and knowing how things have transitioned into more of a less detailed I guess it's having the confidence in those department managers. But once anybody comes along new, uh, Lois being one, I'm not picking on you, Lois, but right, it's just

if you don't have that historical information, sometimes it certainly can be challenging to make that educated uh vote. What if we in a sense compromised um and we had in a sense a summary budget that is brought to us but there are either attachments or supplemental information available upon request um so

that those that are new you know I it I think it was two years ago we did get the summary of labor costs of what the per DM range was getting what the call pay range was getting, that sort of thing. Um, so I think that's something that can almost be a supplemental report

um that's available to us. Same with Neil has asked this time around and it's usually been available to us a summary of um the fire department's activities. How many house fires did they have? How many rescue calls did they have? Um, and

you know, I think I think getting a little bit of the picture helps, you know, um, especially if you are new or kind of getting used to this process. If you see that fire summary and they went to two, they had two calls all year long and then you look at their budget and they want $500,000. Well, why, you know? Um, but

if you see that they've been to 300 calls this year, then yeah, they're pretty busy people. And um, I think it does help to decrease some of the nitty-gritty questions. At the same time, I have been here when the budget was more detailed and

I didn't really attend the selectman's meetings before, but I know the budget committee's meetings, you know, we only all got a taste of it this time around where it's, you know, well, we can deduct $10 from this line and $3 from this line and $5 from this line. And so that gives me a total recommendation of $14,000 to deduct from this budget. Um,

and that was it was understandable where people were coming from, but I do like the I'm recommending $14,000 and my big broad summary is I think there's a lot of areas that can be the pencil can be sharpened and things can be tightened and that's set a lot faster than line item adjustments.

So, so I have an observation and a and a question. Um the there Ruth did send out initially some stuff that I think we're asking about. For example, I'm looking at the cemetery committee's submission from uh Tia Wilson. I don't know who she is, but she gave a little bit of detail on each of the lines in her budget explaining them. I I maybe would have asked a few more questions, but I mean that's kind of the basics of what I think we're asking for. And each department like the fire department and the public works department in particular do provide a PowerPoint or PDF I guess with some detail on those things maybe not enough. So that's my observation where we're already getting some of this. I wonder how many people even looked at those notes. Honestly I didn't until they were presented um or discussed when we were when we were live on the Zoom meeting. And the question is, I guess for Ruth, Ruth, the

these guys must have a spreadsheet with detail on them. I I've done lots of budgets when I was working, and I always had a spreadsheet behind my my gross minds. Yes, we all do. Um, so so why can't we just see that? Is that part of would that solve part of the problem or

Well, you can absolutely see that and it's it's obviously public information. Um, we we were actually instructed not to give a ton of detail. So, that's one of the reasons why you you don't get all the detail any longer.

Well, which budget do the selectment get when they're doing their review? They don't want the detail either. They don't they don't they don't want the detail either. No. So, my question is who's looking at the detail? But you have you have to realize that the select men on a monthto they're meeting twice a month and usually on a twice a month basis they're look they're seeing detail but when it comes to presenting the annual budget I think based on their experience they don't feel that they need to see it again. That's my observation.

Yeah. You know, I I I guess I you know, I feel that um we have a a charge here to be stewards and that it's hard to be stewards and unless we have the information otherwise we have a a number of lumped together line items where you know it's

there there are a lot of questions and I appreciate that you know many members might have a better idea who have been here, you know, worked with this budget longer than I have and these lines longer than I have exactly what's in there. But what I see is, for example, in the fire department budget or public works on some of these things, there are a lot of I have a lot of questions because I ask, for example, for example, fire department uniforms, where are they? Where's turnout gear? Where are EMS supplies? you look at the budget, you can't tell. So, you know, that that's my only comment. I I like Jill's thought, which is with regard to a lot of this could be handled just with a worksheet. For example, labor. Then give us a little table, a worksheet that says, you know, here's our pdeium lab, here's our pdeium labor, here's our call pay labor, our officer pay, our meeting and training pay, and you know, here are our rates,

and you know, here are the hours. Um, give us a little more detail. So, um, you know, other than that, I, you know, I'm I'm I've said my piece here, but I I think that there is some, at least for me as a budget committee member, I feel that there's some information missing from the budget and that there we would benefit from some more detail. Um, but at the same time, I certainly appreciate the fact that, you know, ultimately we're voting on a bottom line, a bottom line budget, but um but I I want to be in a position to be able to do my job as a budget committee member. Thank you,

Neil. The summary that you said came from the cemetery committee, was that in the paper book or was that emailed to us? Both. Yeah, I both. Yeah. I didn't receive all the emails then I have to say because I I don't have that.

It would have been in the first email probably. Um and I I have to admit I did fail this time around picking up the book. So I know that I'm not a good steward in that sense. And as Paul and as Paul said, we as a budget committee are stewards of this and we cannot just rubber stamp something based on what has been presented to us in a less detailed fashion. I mean it is our responsibility even though some of us have the historical information behind how things were created and if there obviously and as Neil said anybody that creates a budget there's detail behind that and that if there it's the will and

certainly if there are individuals on the budget committee that need that information then it should be provided. Yeah, we have all that detailed information every year. Um, especially Calvin Chief does most of this on his own, but Calvin and I go over his budget with a fine tooth comb. We take each of those line items and we sort it all. Um, so into like electricity and phone and everything. And so we know what he's paying on phone, what he's paying on internet, what he's paying on electricity. Um, and then that's all combined into a line, you know, and so it would be fairly easy to to separate that kind of stuff out.

But one of the one of the big keys is when detailed information is provided to the budget committee, it uh requires I think it requires us as members to do our homework prior to meetings. the timeline this year of the budget getting finalized by the

it was January. So so one thing about this year that you guys need to know is we rushed everything. It it feels rushed because it was rushed. Um and the reason we did that is because uh we intend to do it as a referendum and in order to do that we needed to be able to have the warrant available for printing by February 1st. So, usually the deadline is March 1st and so we kind of have two months and this year we really kind of had to back it up and squish it into, you know, a little teeny weeny spot and then uh and then push it forward. And so it was it was very rushed this year.

things. For example, uh you know, not to pick on the fire department here or fire and rescue, but line 3502 is maintenance and repairs. Line 35 uh10 is equipment maintenance. You know, we need a little more specificity in the titles.

So, for example, you know, maintenance and repairs. I'm assuming this is probably the building. Yes, it looks like it's probably the building, but the the lines need to say what they are. Um otherwise, we're you know, we're kind of we're in the position of guessing and having to spend the time to ask the questions

to give the same type of clarification that the select men provided to us after they had made their vote. Yeah, I had something similar in my notes too in the sense of, you know, when I was thinking through it, not even something that's necessarily there each individual time, but you know, since we've been picking on fire department, I'll pick on public works this time around. Um, but when it comes to replacing a vehicle, you know, one of the questions that we always ask is, you know, in the in the why department is the cost of maintenance. So, you know, what is the average cost of maintenance on a one-tonon plow truck versus the cost of your maintenance on this plow truck? Um, so it may even be that just year to year when there is more of a specific um

project that they want to do or piece of equipment that they want. giving us a little report that shows that they've done their homework and they can explain to us why they want it. Um, I know that a lot of people's opinions jump to their own conclusions when they don't really get much of a summary. You know, I mean, even public works, the pickup truck, you know, so you want a pickup truck to go pick up parts, you know, I I don't know anything about how frequently you have to pick up parts. So, am I buying you a pickup truck to go to the part store once a month? Um, am I buying you a pickup truck to go to the part store 10 times a day? You know, information like that is good to have as a summary when it comes to each individual project, just like the cemetery wanting tools. Why do you want these tools? Something that's out of the normal budget showing that they have done their homework. um when they

were looking at getting a plow truck, here's here's the amount of money I want for the plow truck. Well, did you go out to bid? No, I didn't go out to bid. I like Harry next door and this is the price that he gave me. That's not what happened, you know, but um again, showing that you did your homework. I looked into lease vehicles. Here were the pros and cons of doing lease vehicles. Um we've looked into the lease vehicles in the past. Here's our standardized list of pros and cons of looking into lease vehicles. So, all you new people on the selectman and all you new people on the budget committee, I already have that answered for you. Um, you know, did you go out to bid? those are the answers or those are the questions that we're asking repeatedly year from year and we're not getting a

yes and they're not taking it to heart because we asked the same question the following year and they didn't do it. So I'd like to see overall more homework on their part. Um, you know, like the fire, you know, did you try to get grants like Lois was asking this year? And I know the fire department tried to do the air packs, did you send it out to bids, you know, um, did you look into all other alternatives and and why did you then summarize into this plan is all information that I think would be extremely helpful to have in the future.

time. It's a great idea with regard to the maintenance. I think on that one though, you're going to have a hard time breaking it down. And one reason is is because they probably don't track it. Um so um unless they use like a maintenance a maintenance software package that where they track all those things you know work orders and regular maintenance and all those things then it probably just gets all build to you know one account

and that's it. So, it's going to be hard to say for them to say, for example, how much maintenance was on uh, you know, the pickups versus the the Wheelers unless they actually at the end of the year, unless they tracked it as they were going or at the end of the year went back and looked at actual receipts from work. Um, and I'm just wondering that might be a lot to ask. So, um, perhaps then even a smaller summary. I I know we've gotten it in the past, more of a commentary. I know I do it in my own house. You know, I just said it to my husband just last week. You know, we replaced the air conditioner in the vehicle last year. This year, we're replacing the rocker arms. you know, it seems like, you know, we're doing a lot more maintenance on this vehicle than we are doing on any of our other vehicles,

you know, and that catches my attention. And if you haven't, you know, if you're trying to replace a 20-year plow truck just because it's 20 years old, that doesn't fly with me because I drive my vehicles until even the junkyard doesn't want them. But if you can say to me, you know, we're having to, you know, put in body work into it, we're having to, you know, replace the engine, we're having to replace the transmission. That resonates with me because I hear there's a lot more maintenance. I know you don't have to replace the motor in a plow truck every year. So, it resonates.

Maybe maybe like a little bit of a narrative just hitting the high points. Yeah. to put on the table? might have even been Paul. Um, and it might be more of a of a task for the town manager or for the selectman to choose. Um, but finding that kind of generic budget spreadsheet that you hand to the department head and say, "Okay, these these are the lines that we want you to fill in. These are the lines that we need you to fill in." Um, and I think in the, you know, in the past from Paul's perspective to Milts and Allen's perspective, the pendulum has has swung. Um when it started out,

you know, it was probably we're spending, you know, two cents on each square of toilet paper. And now we just know that, you know, our white goods is this amount. Um we got to find that pendulum somewhere in the middle probably. And it may be easier for the department heads if the town manager was to supply them ahead of time with a plug-and-play sheet, which it sounds like, you know, like Ruth mentioned right now, she probably is doing that to a degree with Kelvin helping him out to get things plugged and played into his spreadsheet. Maybe it's enough for us just to point out a few areas and uh bring it to the town manager's attention so that the town manager is aware um that there are some some needs

and um because the town manager may also have some you know specific ideas related to their experience and what they would like to see in the budget. Um, but I I I do struggle a little bit with this idea of us getting this very abbreviated budget without a lot of detail.

sharp because like in in this year you only you really only had one chance to make the request. We had the the joint meeting which was the first time we would see department heads and then the only other time we would see department heads was when we you know had our our own meeting and this in in the case this year neither department head was present last Thursday. Um but normally you know no if when we had several evenings so if we didn't get information or enough information one night we could ask them to return for our next meeting for additional information. But in this case, the with with the current format, if this was to be repeated next year, we would have to we would really need to have all of our questions asked for the combined the joint meeting, which means, you know, and we can't you really can't do much homework prior to the joint meeting because we need to see the presentation.

So, you got to be thinking on your feet or at least be sending out an email request shortly thereafter. Um like in the case of the fire chief, information was requested and it was furnished to us in time for our meeting. Um however, he um you know didn't participate in that meeting if we had wanted to question him. Um, so one other point that I'll bring

up and you know again I'm I guess I I am kind of picking on the fire department here a little bit and my apologies. Um, but with regard to fire department, of course, we have an EMS service and I think it would be helpful to know,

and I don't know if anyone tracks this information other than the fire chief, how much was build out for EMS services and how much revenue was collected? That's been a frequent question every year. So, I agree, Paul. That might be nice to have as a supplemental because

and and like that question is asked every year. I realize that you can't really correlate. It's not a hard and fast number. You can't say, "Aha, well, 60,000 was filled out, but only 40,000 was collected." And that's because it takes so long for medical billing. But over time, it gives you a picture. It gives you a sense of, you know, how much are we collecting? Um, and you know, how are we doing? It gives you a general sense. And currently, it's just a I know I know

I've asked the selectment a few times, but I don't know if it's ever been followed up. I don't know if they know. And I think it would just be helpful to make that kind of a standard thing is, you know, how much did we build? How much did we collect?

Ruth, do you do you know I'm sorry, one second, Neil. Ruth, do you know if we have if the chief or yourself keeps the a running tabulation of both those amounts? So, uh, we actually do all of our medical billing through Freeport. Freeport does all the billing. I I know that Chief has requested that information from Freeport previously and I know that he's had it at different points. I don't know what it is offhand, but but that's where all of our billing goes through. So, I don't track any of that. No,

but he he so he should have a running account based on reporting from Freeport. Yeah. Yes. It's only two numbers. How much did you bill? How much did you collect? We don't need reports or all the data, but those two numbers, I think they tell you a lot over time. Go ahead, Neil.

Well, I was just going to say that's one of those types of questions that you can ask, but in the long run, I don't think it's going to make any difference. We don't have any control over it. One of one of the big concerns was in the beginning when we started the EMS service, uh there was always that the initial question was okay, you put this in, is it going to pay for itself? And at least by looking at numbers like this, you'd know what the expense is, what the revenues, and the additional monies that have to be raised by the town to continue that service. It wasn't that the service I guess it wasn't that the service wasn't needed because we were I think it was down east and Toppson that was providing EMS service and depending on where you lived in town and were you calling Lisbon where you calling Auburn and the quick turnaround it's much quicker turnaround to have it within our own within our own

town but those questions did come up initially when this was put in place and like like you're saying if if that if you the two numbers you can look at it and say it's a good investment or I don't know if you want to really look at it versus a good you can look at it as a good investment but some people say well it's costing us additional money well it's ENF service is like just in case

when the emergency comes we want to make sure that we can support our town's people right and maybe we're not just getting a one window number um or one snapshot number. You know, it sounds like with the EMS as far as the delayed billing or receipt of the payments, you know, we've had we've had the ambulance long enough now that we could get a five-year summary so that we kind of know that yeah, on average we're getting 90% of what we're going for. Well, and I I do think we have to be careful here because, you know, we are kind of pushing into the realm of the selectman's responsibility um if we go too far. But I think just, you know, a couple of metrics would be helpful. But yeah, I don't know. Maybe you're right, Joe. I I don't know. All I know is I know there's a good deal of variance in contractors, collection contractors for medical expenses. And I know this from personal experience and uh uh being in charge of oversight

for uh an EMS program, a new EMS program and using a billing agency that was only able to collect on the on the order of uh I would say 40 to uh 55%. We switched contractors and we went up to 75%. And then you know we did and you know this is a decision of the town but we did decide to also go with a collections contractor for um for things that for uh

bills that were overdue and we bumped that up even higher and so we almost doubled our EMS revenue in a very short period of time. Um, but I guess it it concerns me that no one asked the question. And um, I just think if you have those two metrics, it kind of puts it all above board. It adds a little bit of daylight. And so, you know, you have some sense and not that we have to delve into it too far, but gives you some sense of how you're doing. So, you can maybe ask some educate, we can ask educated questions. Well, it would it would be good to see what the collection numbers are and what is their collection rate if in fact they're doing it.

So, so that answers my question. Is there something we can do about it? Maybe there is. I didn't know that. You can request the information and then we can look at it and say, yeah, is it a good percentage or isn't it? That's right. Exactly. Is it a good percentage or isn't it? And if it's not, it might be a, you know, hey, selectment, you know, what's going on here? Why isn't this percentage higher? Um, you know, could you look at this?

going forward or will that be the job of the new town manager? Oh, it could be either. I mean, you know, could go either way. or you know the selectman well you know the selectman they task the manager so I you know we could say hey selectman look at this and the selectman would hopefully say hey manager look at this what's going on here

so anyway you know I those those are just a few items but again you know maybe if we can hit some high points if we can just hit a few high points and turn it over to the manager, then uh you know they can put their stamp on it because you know they'll be bringing to the table their own experience and their own skills hopefully with with budgeting.

One other thing that got brought up is um a better summary perhaps is the word from the CIP committee. um anticipated funds going out and anticipated funds needing coming in um that sort of thing. And from what got brought up this year, I think it would be recommended to the CIP committee to investigate um the pros and cons of saving the money for a future purchase versus getting a loan when it's time to make the purchase. Um

Okay. Yeah. So that when people do ask the question, you know, it got brought up this year, why are we putting the money away ahead of time, then there can be a good summary answer from the CIP committee. Yeah. Here's one of the challenges we've had as a CIP committee. And uh you know Ruth could probably speak to this at greater length, but um you know one of the challenges we have is you know we have a fairly detailed policy and that the policy sets out like for example one basic thing and that or a few basic things a few basic tenants and one of those is that we have a schedule um we have a schedule for replacements and then the other and that that schedule includes uh the reserve balances where the reserve balances need to be the committee doesn't have any, you know, control over, for example, you know,

over the public works department or the fire chief or whoever. So, you know, they basically have put those schedules together and the balances aren't in the schedule. I think it's been it maybe, you know, this has been a transition for them. um I think doing the schedules and at least for some of them and um so they

haven't included the balances and so Ruth you know bless her heart she has taken it upon herself to um take their information and put the balances in in another table which I believe she calls her 10-year plan and so it creates a little bit of confusion for simplicity those balances need to be in the schedules, but the selectmen also have to demand it because, you know, we can ask for it, but we, you know, we don't get it. So, but so this process, that piece has to be simplified. Um,

perhaps this feedback will help them do that then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, but uh and and with regard to your other point, I think that's a really good one, Jill, with regard to saving versus uh bonding. what what the advantages and disadvantages are. I appreciate that feedback. Thank you.

um you know one of the reasons I did it the way I did Paul with it all in one was so that I could track the overall uh burden on the taxpayers. So, you know, you talk about, you know, taking so much money out of taxes and putting it into a capital fund for public works and then you talk about it for fire and then there's other projects. But, you know, you you you can look at these individually and it's important to look at them individually, but it's also important to look at the bottom line. So, so that's why I had put them all together in the spreadsheet and you know there's a separate one under fire and a separate one under public works and a separate one under uh administration and everything else because everything else goes in administration

and then the bottom part that shows you the overall impact of doing this to the taxpayer. I I am completely fine with Ruth and I can work with it either way. Where I get concerned is when I listened to the recording of the last selectman's meeting and I think each selectman sat there and said, "We don't see it this year. It's not in the plan." They each said that

I and then they made their decision only to carry 30,000 forward. And I have to say I was tremendously disappointed after all the work that staff and the committee had put in and that you know I I just felt that was a little disingenuous. I'll be honest. So and I don't know how we fixed that.

and um I don't know if an opportunity to sit down with Kevin. I don't know if you've had an opportunity oh to sit down with Kevin to look at that 10-year plan because I think it is important that yeah that he understands that so that we don't carry this you know this uh kind of false perception forward because you know I don't know if if uh I don't know what's going on committee report back to the selectman like I mean this is a curiosity question does Ruth have to be the middleman it seems like the select would be wanting a direct meeting with the CIP committee to get a summary of their findings. And

yeah, you know, I think that's probably should have happened. Last year, we got interrupted with COVID. This year, you know, we got to the end of the process and Ruth and I talked and we said, and because of the timing, we said, well, let's just make a presentation to the to the uh budget committee and the selectman. I think it would have helped if we would have just gone to the selectman and we could have gone over that detail with them. So, you know, really the bottom line there is I think you know um we're still finding our way with that process in terms of you know the commu communication and some of those other pieces.

Yeah. Because I don't feel it was communicated very well from the CIP committee to the mutual meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I take responsibility for that. I probably we you know the other issue was you know I Ruth and I didn't coordinate with ex with regard to exactly what would be in the booklet.

Um and you know you guys really I think you know email's great but when you have a lot of files it makes it very complex. Um, if we have everything, you know, in a in a booklet, it includes the schedules, it includes, you know, if we're going to do the 10year plan, rather than have the balances in the schedule, it includes that 10-year plan and then we can look at the materials together. I think that's probably the way to do it. and and this conversation does remind me to say too um of course we're taking the time right now to to discuss everything that's not going well. But I'd like to say that I do think a change that is going well is having the mutual meeting in the beginning. I think that has helped tremendously, especially with the department heads not feeling like they're a broken record or not saying something because they thought they already said it. Even though they did already say it, it just wasn't in our

meeting, that type of thing. So, I think that's definitely been a benefit having the mutual meetings in the beginning. I would encourage and one thing that I have taken upon myself I've watched to see what agenda items are uh that the select men are presenting and whether you have the o many times I don't have the opportunity to listen to them live. I go back in and I watch their meetings and the neat thing about watching their meetings. You can see what their agenda is and you can fast forward through the items that are important to you. So you can I just feel like I'm staying on top of things that are going on within the town.

too. Not as frequently as I should, but when I've had a meeting that I wanted to hear something, it is nice to have that fast forward button. Yeah, it is. So, regarding future budget meetings, one idea I'd like to return to, an idea that Allan and Ruth will will remember, um, when we were presented with the budget, um, like now we're we're presented with the budget from the year previous and two years

previous. What I would find helpful is not only be, you know, being reminded what the budget was, but I'd like to know what the actual spend was for that year. And that's been dropped. No. So, actually, Mil, what what's on your spreadsheet is the two years previous actual, not not the budget.

Oh, that is the actual. That is the actual. Yes. Okay. And then last year's budget and last year's actual. Oh, yeah. Okay. What I would find helpful is perhaps just a line that is the difference between that year's budgeted versus actual. You know, when they spent, you know, 429, did was that 30% below what they were offered or was that 10% above what they were given?

Maybe that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, because then you again you have the idea of the department head's ability to budget. Maybe that's a a false assumption, but um you know pointing out to them you're always budgeting about 30% over, so let's try and tighten the reigns there. I think it can be helpful feedback for them. On on the other hand, I would play devil's advocate here and just say that um tightening the reigns too much can encourage uh department heads to go out and spend in the last month. So I have $30,000 left over. My budget the budget committee is not going to give me the 30,000 next year if I don't spend it. So let's go out and spend what we can. Um, and so that really encourages you to spend it and not to to try and and uh and save it and and put it wherever in undesated funds or whatever.

I I think that's I think that's that's uh uh I can't think of a I want to be say the right word and be kind. Uh but I think that's very hypothetical. I mean, uh, I mean, the way we've been managing budgets and the way department heads have been managing budgets, I mean, that game is is I don't know if it's just our town because this is the only town I've ever been involved with a budget, but I'm guessing it happens everywhere. uh department heads try to spend their allocated budget because they know if they don't spend it, they they're looking they they could very well be looking at a reduced budget the following year. So, I don't think anything we're doing right now is encouraging them not to spend the money. It's

No, no, that's not what I was saying, Mil. I was saying exactly what you're saying that that if you cut it back every year because they didn't spend $30,000, you're encouraging them to come to the end of the year and spend that $30,000 so the budget committee doesn't cut it the following year.

I have to say I've been kind of paying attention to that um and not to stick Calvin out by himself. Um but there was one year where um public works wanted to pave their parking lot and they wanted to install a flag pole. Um

and I remember specifically asking you had this money left over. Did you do that? And he said no. So he, you know, I think we have to give the the department heads credit where credit is due in the sense that when the town does say, I really don't like this idea, you know, which got brought up in the town meeting that year, they didn't like the idea of money being spent on a flag pole or money being spent on the paving. Um, I don't feel like we have sneaky department heads that are trying to sneak in getting things done um because they have money left over.

No, not at all. I I think this changes also um with a once you move to a town manager plan because the um the you know your department head's report to the town manager and the town manager is going to want to look at the warrant you know has to sign off on that warrant I'm assuming on a weekly basis. So, you know, they look at all the, you know, all all those receipts and, you know, so there's some accountability. All of a sudden, you have another layer of accountability with regard to spending that we don't have now. So, uh, I'm hopeful that that will will, you know, change or, you know, and I not that it's a problem now. I I have no idea. And um you know I I know I I uh I

will be so sorry if Ruth leaves us because um uh she has she's done so much for Ruth has done so much for the town. Thank you Ruth. Yes, definitely. Thank you Ruth. For sure. Yeah, that was the impression that I got from my mother's town. Um she was telling me that before the select men see the budget or the budget committee sees the budget, the first, you know, sort of sharp pencil that it has to go through is the town manager who says, "Nope, go back, you know, tweak your budget. I'm not even I'm not even going to show my face next to this piece of paper." Um, so I think we will see, you know,

tighter budgets, so to speak, moving forward with the town manager, at least hopefully that's one of their job criteras. these points? I I have some. Yep. Okay. I started but I didn't complete. Neil and I will compare notes so that I can

You'll also be able to watch this again, right? want to see a a line that says percent increase decrease versus actual department? No, for each line for each line. I mean, right now we have a percent increase decrease and it's versus last year's budget, not what they spent, which which to me is

actuals. Yeah. Oh, you mean what they're requesting this year, compare it to last year's actual versus comparing it to last year's budget? Yeah. I mean, I always do that in my head, but I mean, nice to see it there. Yeah.

say this but I think I've always been assuming it was a percent increase or decrease over last year's actual which I know saying it out loud makes absolutely no sense because there is a column that's labeled last year actual

yeah but they're they're talking about the percentage. So, if we budgeted 10,000, spent 5,000, and we're budgeting 10,000, you know, and it says there's a 0% increase over last year's budget. That's true, but it's also 100% more than we spent last year.

do. So, it would be expenses expenses compared to last year, actual Yeah, the 2021 proposed budget line, you just have another column that says percent increase decrease over actual. One over budget, one over actual. If you want to use budget, I would use actual.

percentages. No, percentage would be fine. We know what they're asking. We know what the actual number is. We know what they're asking, but they don't tell you how much. I guess I'm still I'm not still not following. I see a column for

last year budget. Then I see a column for last year actual. And you want to add an extra column that says what? No, look under 2021 this year. Right. original budget sheets, there is a there's an original original request number from the department head.

All right. And then there is a percent increase decrease which is based on last year's budget, not last year's actual dollars spent. Okay. And I would do that. I I would prefer to have actual percent increase decrease. You get it. Well,

yeah, I think so. Okay. Well, and I would think, Neil, that actually for for the for when they underspend, yes, you want an actual and you want to be able to see it, but for me, when they overspend is when I like to see what the actual percentage is because if they're spending 150% of what their budget is, I

want to know that. And just scanning down a list of actuals, it's easy to see where they're overspending. the underspendings. Yeah, everybody can keep, you know, but if there's one place where they're overspending, it sticks out.

So, Lois, you're requesting then an a column beside the overshort for last year. That's an actual percentage. Nope. I'm asking for the same thing that Neil is. Is just in your actuals. If somebody if somebody had a $10 budget, but they actually spent $20, then it shows up in that actual column as an over spent an overspent amount that they went way above what their budget was. And it shows up. And to me, those are the things that you redline that you look at and you say, "Wait a minute. Why was that?" You know, overspend that much.

There already is that column in there. That column's there already. So here's my budget spreadsheet from this year. Okay. And you can see the overshort for 2020. You can see it sticks out in red. I make it red so I can see it right.

Oh, pardon me. Yes indeed. Yes indeed. Yep. Yep. Yep. So that that way I know where I've overspent and where underspent. So Yep. So Neil, tell explain to me again if you wouldn't mind what additional column do. So let's let's pull this one across and this is going to be the actual

and then we can take take one where actual to 20 21 budget, right? Yeah. 20 actual to 2021 budget. Yeah. So, I'm trying to find something that's really different. All right, we we'll go with this one. So, we can take this. And so,

work. something in here that I went up on. Well, just 29. just change the cell number and do them all. Well, yeah, I can, but Oops. All right. So, we're going to take this year's request. on. We're going to take No, that's right. Sorry. this year's request minus last year's actual and then we're going to divide that by last year's actual and that make that a percentage. So then you can see that that went up 5.5% above well it's the same

because I spent what I what I said I was right. So drag that cell down a few or Yeah. Yeah. Wow, look at that one. Because it's a zero, right? Yeah, this one. That's crazy, girl. You got to explain yourself there. crazy. You never know what you're going to spend on that one.

Was that one where you had $600 and you spent 49? Yeah. Is that what Yeah. Well, you know, they keep Yeah, we keep wanting to buy those stupid code books, but for whatever reason, we haven't done it yet. But yeah, so so that's basically what what I think Neil's asking for.

Yeah, it's not it's not a crisis. I can do it myself, but yeah, I can't. So, I'd like to see it. Well, the percentages are weird sometimes, though, because you know, some of them, you know, like All right, so like this one, 27.09% 09% is an increase over last year's what actually spent. But but you see this line is only like

but you got to kind of weigh that as well. Yeah. And that's why it's also helpful to see past years and just look at the actual number like the publication. If on average you're spending 600 and last year you didn't what happened Ruth? Oh well, COVID hit and you know the government closed all the publication buildings so we couldn't buy anything. Okay. You know I mean

yeah get and more importantly the bottom line for me you know what's what's the bottom line? last year. above Well, most of that's the town manager. Yeah. Yeah, I bet it is. But it it even caused you right then, Ruth, to give an explanation.

Yeah. Well, and you can see here my percent spent was I only I only was left with 2% of my budget last year. Yeah. You know, I think when you when you read through these notes in the budget, too, administration does a pretty good job. They've got they list uh approximately 10 bullet points of the major, you know, major reasons for increases and decreases. They're also a less variable department though. They're not weather dependent. They're not health dependent. Um they're not um mechanic dependent.

Mechanic is a big thing. Yeah. Yeah. But I I guess what I'm saying is, you know, I think when you look at the admin budget overall, um, you know, you've got a little more detail and you do have detail in the notes and I don't think, you know, with some of the other departments, we're getting as much detail.

In other words, good job, Ruth. down. So like public works. So you could you could break down the labor line between winter and summer. So usually uh workers comp def defines winter as four months and eight months is uh summer. So you could take four months, I don't know, October 15th or November 15th to the following whatever or you have to take the previous spring plus the winter actually because so it's kind of even more complicated. So you could break it down that way. You could break it down into overtime versus not overtime. Uh we don't have a ton of overtime because Calvin's really good at at uh trying to cut down on that. Um, so if the guys work a lot, you know, during a snow event, he he tries to cut down some of their other hours that particular week, not in total. Um, fire department. Yeah, you could the PDM especially because I know a couple years ago we added the PDM to the fire department. So

I think that would be very interesting for you guys to see what what did that add. Yeah. Um, with public works, what you could do is you could say, you know, you have your full-times, right? After full-time, you have the number of full-time employees that you're budgeting.

You're budgeting three or four. Then you have your part-times. How many part-times are you budgeting? This gives you a sense of the total size of the crew. And then you have your seasonals. So maybe you have three lines, your full-times, your part-times, and your seasonals. Yeah, we don't really have seasonals.

Oh, okay. Per say we have we have on call. Um and we have one gentleman who works for us in the summertime to do the the mowing. Okay. So, you're on calls. We have on call mowing. Yeah. review the spreadsheet that uh Ruth sent out today. And what I'm going to uh send back for budget committee notes. I just want to make sure that I'm stating it correctly.

seeing uh the spreadsheet that she just sent to us late this afternoon that shows our numbers. And I'll just go in order now. I'm now I'm also looking at the sheet that the selectmen had sent me that showed their recommendation

their vote. So there was one, two, three, looks like four four votes that we uh differ from them. The first one is the Eureka Center and the change that we voted was for uh the instead of transferring $490, we're recommending that a total of $2,754

that the 490 comes from fees and that 2,00 264 comes from undesated funds and that's to fund a repair project that they already raised money for last year. That correct? Correct. Okay. Um under general assistance um our recommendation is that we transfer first of all is that the total amount be $600 and that we transfer $420

from undesated. we just feel that's closer to reality, closer an amount closer to what's actually needed. So what I wrote in my notes is we've never spent this much until last year. So $1,000 historically has been too high of a number. Um, and it's also been determined that if the need is greater than $600, the selectmen are able to get the money out of the general assistance fund without needing a special meeting.

amount. Neil, did you write that down? No, I can send it to you if you want. Okay, thank you. I'll look at my notes tomorrow and won't be able to read it. Um, another change we made was to planning board. Uh, we changed the total article amount to 31,000. 742 and our reason was we felt a 2% increase over last year last year's actual was appropriate.

selectment in a sense was doing as an overall budget increase. And because we had no explanation from the planning board as to um a sense of need. And then we changed uh telecommunications. Um the total amount we're recommending is 50,000 be transferred and the reason I'm I wrote down was the amount closer to the funding we received. I have a whole big paragraph so if you like it I'll share it to you again. But um I just wrote in past years we have spent above our income because of a large untapped balance and knowledge that franchise fees would continue. Now, we are nearing the end of the contract and franchise fees may not continue. We believe it's time to sharpen the pencil, tighten this budget, and work our way back to the income amount.

me. We had also mentioned there's a possibility of changing some of the moving some of those administrative fees into administration for next year. Yeah. Right. Yeah. me a rewrite for two of those. Y um changes. solid waste was also different if I remember correctly

I thought the only thing different was the uh where was I solid waste was the bulky waste but uh the board's going to take that out anyways I'm sure okay correct because that's going to be free this year actually the b the the select men did take it out because they were they were uh looking at the possibility of having a separate article and that was prior two having feedback from Pineree,

right? Yep, that's correct. So that their amount of 310,000 um already had removed the 10,300 for bulky waste. Yes. Correct. Correct. Okay. to everybody on the committee to follow the proper rules or can I just share it with Milt?

Actually, you can just share it with Milt. Okay. So you can you can share anything you want with any individual person on the committee. What you guys can't do is you can't talk as a committee and email. So you can't email the whole committee and then Lois answers you and she emails the whole committee and then Mil answers and he emails the whole committee and you're basically having um an illegal meeting.

Okay. the Hulk? dogs myself. Between the dogs barking to go in and the dogs barking to go out and the dogs peeing on the floor during the meeting. Sorry. No problem. That's my life. And then Yeah, that's my life. Any other business to come to the committee this evening?

Well, we I hope to give you the, you know, we were supposed to get the night off. I I was great that six of us, I thought, were able to come back together and uh honor the request by the select board. I will uh once I hear back from Jill with her notes and Neil was was going to compare notes with me um I will forward it a document to the select board on everyone's behalf and um I do encourage you to watch the Zoom meeting that's taking place tomorrow evening the the the as when the select board met

last week you know those were sort of recommendations when the select board meets tomorrow night. They're voting on actual numbers. So, they could stick to their original um article amounts. They could on those six that I just mentioned, the six articles I just mentioned, they could possibly uh rewrite their um article so that it reflects what our decision was um or not. So, if you're kind if you're interested in hearing their discussion whether or not to match our recommendations, I um recommend that you

tune in to their meeting, Zoom meeting tomorrow night, which will uh take place at 6:30 and the link would be available via the Durham website. I think it would also be helpful to attend because if they don't agree with the budget, they're going to be talking about the wording in the warrant and it's probably good to have a budget committee to help with insight there, too.

You want to take two seconds and see the wording? Are you guys interested? Well, we don't we don't know what the final vote's going to be. No, but I've already written the warrant. I mean, obviously does I know what it's going to be. Did you Did you have an unpublished meeting rules?

Say, why does this feel like the federal government or All right, hold on. Let me pull up the warrant. See, here's the truth. We all think we've been working on a budget, but in reality, it's already been created for us.

somewhere. There it is. All right, I gotta share this. notice most of them aren't really different. I'll show you the ones that are different. So, most of them are just yes, no. There's a bunch of fund warrant articles. So, the board's trying to consolidate some of the funds, which makes sense. Um, and then we're going to get to the ones that you guys are. So, here's where you're different. So this one shows the differences. It shows the select board recommendation, the budget committee recommendation and then it asks whether the voter would like the select board recommendation, the budget committee recommendation or neither recommendation. And we are required to allow them to choose neither. So that's why that's in there. And I have already shown this to our our lawyer and he he says he thinks that that will work fine. Um, if I could just interrupt for one second, there was one other article

amount that we differed with the select board and that was fire department operations. of you. Thank you. Um, we had our our amount is is to raise $472,753. um we feel a reduction in the labor line is appropriate since the amount has been fairly steady since 2019.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So, uh Ruth, will there be any type of narrative that goes with the articles? Uh, so not on the ballot, but um I will be doing uh like I did the last time a a mailer and we can have the mailer available to people who want it at the election.

Oh, Ruth, you want to look at something specific on on the appropriate appropriate appropriate and raise for budget committee. Why are there seven digits? Oh, because and you just I just noticed that because there's a 0 Z at the end that I need to get rid of.

I can't see it. So, it's it's so small on my iPad that I could can't see the the period. So, the dot the decimal point at the end. So, if if people voted on neither recommendation, would it revert back to last year's budget?

So, the one of the first questions on it is going to be uh if to see if the number article four see if the town of Durham will vote to raise an appropriate amount not to exceed the 2020 Durham municipal budget for any budget articles that are not approved. So theoretically, if if everybody votes yes on this and they said no on the on both of the recommendations for the fire department, then the fire department would revert to last year's budget. And that's

Are you able to underline not approved? Um yeah, or like not approved below. When I read that real quick, I was like, "Oh, that's an easy vote for the budget. We're just keeping it at 2020 or below. Now, that would be a lot of work for nothing there, Jill.

I know. That's why I'm like, maybe we need to clarify that a little bit. designated. Oh, I can't enable it. Hold on. again. I'm finding typos. to. I can bold that. Underline it. Ruth, I've got one for you. Yeah. How about the article that alerts you to exceed uh you know, I I forget what the name of it is.

LD1. LD1. Thank you. Yeah. Is that at the end? It's here. It is here. Property tax levy limit article 28. I I actually have not had a chance to figure out what the levy limit is. I have to do that before tomorrow night. Um but we will exceed it.

Okay. Yeah. What is What does that all mean? Or that'll be in the explanation you mail out. Yeah. LD1 is a law that they've passed uh I don't know how long ago where you can't exceed the growth factor in your town for taxes. So, so you take the growth factor in the town, you take the growth factor in the state and you add them together and you multiply it by the amount of money that you raised last year. And you're not supposed to raise more than that. Um, and if you do, then the the town has to vote to to increase the property tax levy limit in order to do that. We didn't need it last year because our our budget actually decreased last year. Um, but but we will need it this year.

And if the town says no, I don't want to give you permission to increase the maximum property tax levy limit. And we can't. We would have to redo the whole budget. it? It's required, but yes, it is. It's a lot when you can speak about it on the floor. You know, it's hard situation.

Yeah. Voting. I I I tried leveraging that one town meeting a number of years ago. One of the problems is the school system is exempted. They're not part of that mandate. Right. Right. And no and nobody's ever said no. So, it's kind of a waste of time.

No. No. Is to my knowledge, nobody's ever said no. In our town, I I don't know about other towns. Well, an overall vote, the overall vote is not been no. Right. like. There's 30 39 questions. So, what's it going to take, Ruth, for me to get the words board of selectment changed to select board? Do I have to request that in an ordinance or something?

No, I understand where you're going with it and I, you know, I obviously I obviously agree with you, but um I don't know. You'd have to talk to the select board or the selectman little men. You know, you should Lois, you should talk with MMA because it's not just Durham. It's every town in Maine.

No, some towns don't do that. They don't call They call them board. They call them select boards because I was in Raymond today and on their big lit up sign on Route 302, it calls it the select board. here, right? But some of them that you scan down through it says board of selectman.

Did I do that? I went back and forth. So, some of them I don't know. You're going too fast for me to read them. At one point, I saw that. That's why I I wanted to ask what I have to do. I wonder where. Okay, I'll have to look for that because I usually do write slack board. I think you can put the words border selectment in your search box and then it'll find it for you.

Oh, it's in the the select and keep going down. Yeah, it's all the warrant. These are are articles that just are copied every year. Oh, yeah. So that's why. Yeah. change it. Glad if I'd known that, I wouldn't come years ago.

for the committee this evening? I think we are. If I don't Nobody has anything else to say. All right. All right. I thank you again for joining us, Ruth. Thanks so much for your participation as well. Yes. Thank you, Ruth.

Thank you for hosting this. Thanks, Ruth. Hey, Ruth.