TranscriptPlanning Board Meeting ~ April 1, 2015

really happened. minutes. [clears throat and cough] Yeah. They most of them came out like this. Okay. later after the app. I'll try to be fast. kind of outline. Yeah, that'd probably be a good idea. Get excited when they say kind of money.

You guys get to sell it, dog. [laughter] Comes up first. They may not ask. May it may just go winging right by. Nobody may they may get caught up on the pencil budget for this, you know, the office or something. It's funny. You never know what they're going to get on.

Someone will say, "What's this?" things will be fresh. What I enjoy is in the fall and then starts there a whole water. We have water that goes down the whole you know if and then pools where do you know if Ann was gonna make it

I heard no word behind them into that wet back there. Give her another minute. She was in a couple days ago getting a registration or something. She didn't mention anything to me. I mean I just waved at her but give her a few minutes.

have her on my speed dial. Do that. Speed down. Yeah, right. What's speed? [laughter] Michael, do you know if you're expecting? [clears throat] second girl. Actually works well. Hand me down all you have all the clothes.

She's driving in. They live in Portland. They live in Vermont for a long time. bought a house in Portland two and a half years ago. [clears throat] That's a fun city. Yeah. Yeah. They live in They were living in Burlington. So

Portland is also a fun city. Yeah. Portland. Not so much. [laughter] I go there for a night. That's it. Can't take much more of that. Well, Sean grew up out here so he liked Burlington and his wife grew up in the town. on the outside of

Durham. Hey, how's that for? Yeah. My daughter's fiance from Derry. No, Derby. Derby. Yeah. Right on the order. Yeah. Yeah. All right. uh call to order the meeting for April 1st. Um we have a quorum of um attendees. Um and we stand for the pledge of allegiance.

United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Do we have any amendments to the agenda? Seeing none, uh, we want to wait until later to do minutes.

Yeah, let's move those to the end. Yeah. Uh, continuing business. I see none. All right, moving right into a new business. Um, Ariel Clerk, step right on up. Hi. what's up? Sure. Well, I was here a couple months ago um and told you guys basically what I want to do um at our residence, teach horseback riding lessons, have a small um horseback riding and boarding business um on our property, and um here we are again. Um you guys wanted me to um fix the map for the prospective um

pasture and runin that might happen in the future. Um so we did that and um detail from last time? Oh sure. How many horses? Oh sure. exactly what the business will look like. Oh, sure. Yeah. So, um I have two horses currently and um I haven't started teaching yet, but I um have a client base um of about 11 riders um that ride

weekly. Um so, these riders come with their parents or some of them are adults and they come and they ride and then they go home. Um and um currently don't have any borders. These are my own two horses that I intend to use for lessons. Um, I went to school for ecoin business management. Um, so this is what I wanted to do. I have two small children at home, so it's going to be on a very small scale um until they're um, you

know, in school full-time. And um like we had said last time is if we were going to grow bigger and bigger that um we would have to come back to the board um at that time. And so I think I said up to five horses in my letter.

Yeah. Um, Yeah, 15 to 20 riders a week. 15 to 20 riders a week. Did you repeat that? I'm sorry. 15 to 20 riders per week would be my maximum before I would need to come back to the board. barn facility. It' be just a standard runin three-sided runin shed and the horses would live outside. It wouldn't be a uh a big facility, you know, with a lot of, you know, traffic in and out. there would there would only be one or two cars at a time coming into park at our residence.

So, you're using an I'm trying to remember you're using an existing structure that you already have. Yes, we we've built a I think it's an 8 by6 structure. Okay. Uh would this be seasonal or would you ride through the winter?

Seasonal. Yeah. Thank you. that would that would stay potentially, you know, but but they're not going to be doing much riding. No, you're not that not that brave. So the f but the up to five horses would include any borders, right?

That's right. Yeah. checklist Sure. All right. All right. So, copy of the site plan, [snorts] date, scale, and north point. So, we don't have a date or a scale for North on this. Is it on your map, Ariel? You have a large scale map in there.

Yeah. So on here, date, scale, and north point. So we need to know which way is north. Which way is north? It says north. Head out to the head out the driveway is north as well. Are those items that's missing again? Yes.

Missing date, scale, and north point. scale that is? Yeah, you kind of see the uh like here we got 120 foot setback, you know, 80 foot setback and the size of this of the sheds are there. So you can get a good idea. And the driveway is 50 ft. Exactly.

Yeah. Is it quarter scale or 1 in scale? Yeah. I don't know exactly wouldn't be a standard scale. This is shrunk anymore. do we want to require that or do we want to wave that requirement? is I think for my purposes I want to know if this is enough information for us to

go through and decide the rest of the questions the [snorts] rest of the criteria we do have the setbacks how big is your lot 7.65 65. We can put a date on but specifically scale and north point scale be. Yeah, scale on this Google map.

dome or two round things here? No, in the Google image. Oh, it was a pool and we had the the old owners the sellers take it out before we bought it. cuz we have two young children. want to wave it or do we want to require it? Do we need to require it?

Well, this one has corner of the Google map? I don't think it is. I don't think so. Oh, actually it might be. It's a pretty Yeah, I bet it is. Think so. it is. I'm looking at it backwards cuz the guys are on the back side of the building.

the driveway is running almost north and south. Yeah, it is kind of in line with the driveway. You can't really see the driveway in this Google image. I'm assuming that that's your that's your front yard. Exactly. Yes. Where the car north would actually be this way,

right? And maybe Okay. Maybe that is looking at it upside down. So that could be the North Point. Yeah, I would I would think it's reasonable to expect that, but it would be easy enough for them to put it on the map, too.

Yeah, it will be. How old is the map? Does it say? Well, The Google map would be accurate as of like last summer That's when the pool got removed. drawing? Uh that is a lot plan that came with our deed and uh I you know whited out what the information that we didn't need. We get your information and uh used PDF software to add in everything we needed.

And was that done by a surveyor or who did the lot? I believe yes, it was done by a surveyor. So the I didn't draw the Okay. So there should be a scale. Exact. Yeah, exactly. That's per the deed. Okay. It doesn't have a scale on your larger map.

No, the smaller one is just a shrunk down. Well, no, but the bigger one doesn't have a scale on it. We've got this that shows the acreage there. Do you have the original map that was attached to the deed? Probably not where it is. I don't think

I don't have that with us. But that your latch you want the large one plan doesn't have a scale on it. No. No. No. It's exactly what we have. Doesn't really matter cuz this one's going to be shrunk in it. scale on it, but like I said, this was exactly 50 ft.

That would give you your your scale for that. anything. So, yeah. Yeah. So, did you add on the the buildings that you've added on since you bought the property? We've added You drew those on this. Yes. Yeah, we we added one chicken coupe. Um and the one the running shed.

Yeah. Everything else was there in the hay store. The the temporary it's a temporary garage type thing. [snorts] Oh, it's here. Okay. on it, but I want to move ahead. We have setbacks. We have the numbers as far as but if we run into something else that

All right. So, we're going to come back to that one. Yes. I'll come back to it and see where we are. All right. So owner's name, address, I think we have that right. owners. The applicant shall also include a copy of the abutter signed return receipt notices or shall submit a signed acknowledgement of receipt by the abuters.

They're in her file. The plastic envelope in the page. Yes. your letter said um 1 to four borders and 10 to 15 lessons weekly. Yeah. Oh, okay. So, that's a little bit different than what we just talked about. Okay. We'll go back to that. Okay.

What you just said. Okay. be our trust. location of site within the town. I think number two is complete. Okay. Um so I think we she gave us the tax map with hers outlined. So three is complete. under the control of the owner applicant. Do you have any abudding property? This is your only parcel. Okay. So that's an NA four is NA

zoning classification of the property location and zoning boundary districts if the property is located in two or more zoning districts. Do we have applications um southwest bend growth district bend? Yeah. Okay. So is it in is there any wetlands or resource protection or thereabouts? I didn't see any on the map.

Okay, so five is complete. property lines and the source of information. So we don't have the um boundary line distances. So why don't we come Yes. Why don't we come back to that as well? Is this for the same bear and distances?

Do we have distances? Uh, no. No. Okay. So, let's No, we got setbacks. That's all we got. Okay. So, let's come back to six. Um, location of all building setbacks required by this ordinance. I think we have that. Yep. Well,

at least for the run in, we don't [snorts] have anything for the house. We don't have anything for the house. house isn't changing. House exists. Will the house be used as part of the business at all? We may include it as part like a small office type of thing, but

but people won't be but not at this point. So people won't be coming to the house for any reason. All right. So let's come back to seven uh location dimensions and ground floor elevations of all existing and proposed buildings on the site. So we've got dimensions of the proposed runin. We've got dimensions of some of the other buildings but not the house. And we don't have any elevations.

the out level, right? But then elevation tells you high how high the building goes up, right? Above sea level is actually um so why don't we come back to that? Does that make sense? Yep. The location and dimensions of driveway, parking and loading areas, and walkways existing and proposed. Where are folks going to park?

That spot next to the driveway there. So, this sort of the square. Yeah. To the left there. And how many cars can you fit there? Up to 12. Oh, wow. Uh, how big is it? Do you know? Because the dimensions aren't It's probably uh 60 by 80. It's a pretty good size gravel pad in front of the garage and to the left of the garage area. I'

been out to the house a couple of times. So, Okay. And you said the driveway is 50 ft. Yes, the rightway is 50 ft. The runway is. It's about uh 800 ft from Pound Road to where it opens up in our driveway to here. Exactly.

coming back to it? Ground floor elevations. one. Yep. Okay. So, what about driveway nine? I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Parking and loading areas. walkways. Any questions? Okay. So, we'll say that meets. Yeah, that's [snorts] complete.

Mhm. All right. So, nine is complete. Location of intersecting roads or driveways within 450 ft of the site. Well, if it's 800 ft up the driveway, then there's nothing. Unless you're closer to Route 136 than I think it's more than 45 that way too.

The intersection will be up at Pound Road. Yeah. Okay. So, we think that's not applicable. Yeah. Not really cuz there is none. So, 10 is not applicable. provisions for water supply and wastewater disposal including soil test taken and complete description of soil conditions, type of subservice or other wastewater disposal system and draft plumbing permit application.

Um what are you going to do about you're going to have a uh outside a portable toilet at the site? No. There'll be no additional plumbing. So, they just going to use the house? Yeah, it'll go into the house. In the house. Okay.

So, not applicable. Uh, well, that's what I'm asking the board. Yes. Okay. Yes. 11 is NA. Yep. All right. location of open drainage courses, wetlands, stands of trees and other natural features. So, how does this property drain? Basically around the um outside of the property you're looking. It's a little bit wet through here. Comes through this culvert this way and then kind of goes off.

The water flows this way. Exactly. And the water off this part, does it also just flow away? I believe it does. I don't see any standing water there or anything. Okay. said it's soggy back here, but they're not classified as wetlands.

Not that. Well, the back corner is in uh Oh, the way back of it what Todd there's a there's a small wetland designated on the tax maps towards the back of the property but it's hard hard to tell where it hits. Yeah. I'm not sure.

Right on the border. Yeah. so do we need more information on that wetland and where it hits? there with horses, Okay, I'm okay. So, complete. Yes, we have enough information. Direction of drainage across the site we just discussed. So, that's complete. Yes, you guys aren't putting in any new drainage.

existing and proposed signs. Do you have any signage? Nothing. No. No. Okay. So that's NA. 14 is NA. The sign at the end of the driveway. Oh, we may put at some point we may put a small sign that says, you know, is there a sign already at the end?

There is no sign. We have a a sign that says our name. has our name on it and our address says 12 road. That was their when we bought it. Well, it had the other people's name on it, but Okay. Yeah. No. Okay. So, the application we're approving today has no signage.

Okay. So, that's an NA. Uh 15. Location and dimensions of any existing easements, copies of covenants, or added restrictions. Are there any easements across your property? Restrictions. Do you have any easements across others? Is your driveway an easement or is that owned?

No, we own it. Owned. Okay. But we I believe we own an easement across the town's property, the maintenance facility across the backside. I believe it's that's part of our deed. Okay. It's a 50ft rideway. It's got to be a mile around the whole property.

Do you have copy of the deed? I we do not [clears throat] with us but that is part of and there are no covenants or restrictions in your deed h that I know of there's a 50ft rightway around number 74 what is yeah what is the town

the town's the maintenance facility around the it's number 74 four. property on 136, it' be on the left hand side, 50 ft off that boundary going around the back of that property. It's a long ways around. Yes, it is. And it's not shown on the map. It's not shown on the uh property map.

Would be shot. Yeah, it would be on a uh in the deed. Yeah. should be on here. It might just be an easement and they haven't actually plotted the rideway yet. Could be just a ement for crossing the property, not actual right awayation, but

um might be worth looking at. I don't think that's important to this application. So, I'm going to find I'm going to I think it's complete. Are you guys okay with that? Yep. All right. So, 15 is complete. lighting. Are you going to be adding any lighting?

No. Okay. So, nothing on the runins? Nothing. So, NA. So, NA. You guys okay with that? Mhm. Yep. Copies of state approvals and permits. Do you require any state permits or anything for this? Any driveway entrance or anything like that, Paul?

No. Okay. So I think that's NA. You guys agree? Yes. Yep. All right. So 17 is NA. 18. Schedule of construction including anticipated beginning completion dates. You aren't building anything now, right? No. All right. So I think that's NA.

containment of hazardous materials or petroleum products. Are you guys adding any fuel sources? I think that's NA. You guys agree? Yep. All right. 19 as NA. Uh brief description of the proposed conditional use, how it will operate, any facts the applicant wishes to bring to the planning board, information on financial capacity, neighboring water supplies, design of the project, and other information need to demonstrate compliance.

Yeah. Now that I think we've got 30 on scale, I'm kind of going back and forth on that, but okay. I'm okay. So 20 is complete. missing scale. We're missing North Point. We're missing bearings and distances of property lines. We're missing build some building setbacks. um ground floor elevations of proposed buildings and that's it.

Yep. So, do we think we need those to decide the merits of this? Should we wave them or should we require those to be submitted before us before we can consider this application? secure. Uh, six. You mean six? Oh, [clears throat] okay.

six, seven, and eight. B, B, six, seven, and eight. Yep. Yep. we've got a pretty good handle on that location of all building setbacks number seven we have the setback on so um wave it's existing so wave seven because the buildings that we're missing are existing

right all right so seven is waved. is a secondary a second runin shed. How tall will that be? Uh, which one now? It's like 9 and 1/2 ft. use. That would be immediate. So, I would vote to wave number eight as well because we have the necessary information on new buildings. What do you guys think?

I'm fine with that. I'm okay. All right. So, eight is waved. So, that leaves us with B and seven or six, I'm sorry. Six. Yeah. We want to go back to six or we Not with us. and dimensions. will impact the town and the other um

factors, they've given us the dimensions of the driveway. Um, outstanding dimensional requirements. I think we have enough information to decide. Which number is that six you're talking about? Uh, six and B to a certain extent as well. We're missing scale.

we all set? I don't think so. It' be useful to to have seen the deed and to have some sense of the North Point and and all, but I think we've had enough because of this conversation to to get a grasp of what we're looking at. So, I'm I'm okay with this.

Do we have enough information to make our decision? I think so. [clears throat] Okay. So I would vote to wave B to the extent of scale and six to just six the bearings and distances of property lines. Did you just repeat that? [clears throat]

So B for the purpose of scale is waved. The rest is complete and six is waved. complete? Would somebody want to make a motion to that? complete with the waiverss discussed. Second. All those in favor. All righty. else? You want to hear from us first before we go on?

Yes, I think so. Okay. Have a seat. One or two at a time. That's okay. [laughter] Yeah. My name is Faith Baker and I reside at 20 pound road. Can you just tell us uh which which that is you going to say your name? Robert Smith at 20 pound road.

We [clears throat] are 75D. Okay. Oh, hold on. Let's get on get on the map. So, Miss Baker and Mr. Smith, right? 75D. Yes. 25 75D. Okay. So, [clears throat] oh, let's let's go here first, I think. Um, you mentioned there's no [clears throat] wetlands on the maps.

Yeah, there are wetlands. Um, I have a brook that runs down the left side of my house, runs across the front yard down the left side. And And where are you on this map? Um, 75D. 75. So we're talking what he's talking about right here is that there's water that flows right down the side here. Their culvert comes across the road.

It empties into an area that is and and it pools there. It's like a pond almost in the backyard. Then it flows down here next to their property. And you can even see the little wet land mark right there next to their property right there. And on the larger map. Um,

so we just had questions about the wetland because we are concerned about our water. It's a larger swamp on the left side of their driveway as [clears throat] you're going down. Um, and it's it's swampy all year. I mean, it's a swamp.

Yeah. And this shows the swamp drains over into our yard through their cover um that runs under the road. So, there are wetlands there. And our well is right next to that um right next to the drive next to the little stream there. I just wanted to clarify that

dug well or not. It's a drilled well. Drilled well. Y I'm trying to find the map that was part of their application that actually showed a wetland. Here it is. Yeah. Um if I'm reading this correctly, this area right here is designated as a wetland and it actually crosses over their property. But the water, the way it comes down, it it flows into that area here and here. So there's a lot of water in in the area and our well is right next to that water there. So we did have some questions about that, but just to get

But again, it's Could I see the drilled well? Um it's a drilled map. This one? Yes, please. Thank you. So, um, we we actually own, uh, 665 ft along the northeast side of our property running within a few feet of the L clerk existing right of way, which is labeled as a driveway on their maps. Um,

66 665 ft. Yep. All along that whole driveway there. And our southern boundary abuts the L clerk's property for about 101.72 feet. So we've got about 700 766 ft of property of ours that abuts theirs. Um we have nothing against horses. We really like horses. We have no objection to the clerks being permitted to start their business and to operate what sounds like a wholesome business to us. So, we're really not opposed to the business itself operating on the large track of land that they have identified here as the site.

Um really adamantly opposed to them being allowed to operate their business on this long narrow driveway. And um Ariel has consistently said that she plans to conduct her riding lessons on this driveway and and that borders would be allowed to ride on the driveway and we consider that to be the operation of the business and we feel that it will adversely affect us in several ways. So we'd like to discuss that with you. Um, and we appreciate you taking time to listen to our concerns, and we hope that you'll take them into consideration when considering what conditions might be imposed on this business because they really don't own any kind of a buffer land on either side of this driveway. Um, [clears throat] we really, our property pretty much goes right up. I don't know, you said 50 ft. 50 ft wide. I don't

It has to be. It's not 50 feet wide. Well, the the No, the the rightway itself is 50. Has to be 50 at least. The gravel portion at least. Okay. Because the gravel portion is not and No, the gravel wouldn't be. Yeah, we So, we're we're pretty much right up to the side of that driveway as are the fields who um are on the other side of that driveway. Um, so we we um

were respectfully requesting that that you grant the permit for this business, but with a couple of conditions. And the first condition is we are concerned about the the water quality and where they plan on putting their manure piles. Because of the flowing water down in this area, we want to make sure that that this is on a um an imperous surface

and covered in accordance with section 5.413 413 of Durham's groundwater protection act. Um so that any nitrates from that don't leech into that water field and ultimately end up in this this whole water flow here. So um we we do hope that's taken care of. We're also concerned um that she checked off uh no on her application when asked if they were near proximity to a wetland. So I think you can clearly see from this map that the wetland does abut them and there's a lot of water in this area. So that is a concern. In addition to proper management of the horse manure piles in accordance with the the ordinances, we ask that all um horse manure that's dropped by the L clerk personal horses or any other horses on the driveway be removed to proper piles on the larger lot and not discarded to the edge of the driveway on or near our property. Um the second condition that we are requesting which is a very important one

to us and to our neighbors the fields um is that the business operations including the riding lessons and riding of boarded horses to be allowed to be conducted on their larger lot um which is approximately 7.65 65 acres and not at any time on the right of way um that lies between the Smith Baker and Field property. The reasons for this are first of all um an intended use of a right of way is designated as a driveway. It means its use is intended for vehicular traffic to their lot. It's not for operating a business on. It has a potential to cause disturbance and increased risk of liability to us as the abuters. A driveway is not, in our opinion, a normal or safe place to operate a business that combines the unpredictable nature of large animals with people and vehicles, especially whether it may be children or others participating in lessons on that. So, you previously had asked whether the the

driveway was the site of the business, and I guess we'd like to have that clarified because from what we've been told, they do plan on operating the business on the driveway, and we [clears throat] really don't want to operating on the driveway. Um, I did talk with um the owner [snorts] of Sha Shio um horse stables and um she agreed with me that I she would never let her riders or borders ride on the driveway. that's intended for vehicle pass. And

that's not true. Well, she agreed with me that it was not a safety that it was a safety issue and that she wouldn't have lessons there. Um, we also feel there's a lacker lack of a proper property buffer. Um, the llur right or llur I guess I'm that the c is silent, correct?

Okay. Okay. I apologize for that. clear. I'll just uh thelair right-of-way driveway really has no or little buffer zone of their own property next to it on either side. Um at least that's true on our side of 665 ft. Um so for liability, private privacy, and personal lifestyle reasons, we're not comfortable with them operating the business that close to our property line without any kind of land buffer to reduce our liability risk. Um it's a basic safety issue. I mean conducting riding riding lessons on a long narrow driveway where vehicles cannot turn around is inherently unsafe. Traffic is unpredictable. Cars of riding lesson clients and boarding house course owners will be coming and going. uh the unpredictable delivery schedules for UPS trucks, oil trucks, hay trucks, other vehicles, plus the fact that they take up the width of the driveway cannot turn around and don't allow enough space for

horses to pass to the side without going onto ours or our neighbors property. Should be reason enough not to operate a business on a driveway. Um risk of liability. Um, I I know that, you know, with all due respect to Ariel and her ability to train her horses, um, you really can't claim that a horse would never get spooked and and she's pretty much said that to us. I don't think even the most experienced handler or rider can make such a claim. Uh, horses are unpredictable. Um, and and

they do get spooked and they do uh rear and so forth. Um, I had the unfortunate experience of being thrown from a course when I was 10 years old and I landed about 8 to 10 feet away from it. Um, fortunately in a soft spot, but even the um, best riding stables and I'm looking at Spring Point um, clearly identifies in their release statements how dangerous horseback riding can be and there's a real risk of of um, horses throwing a rider. I know the lerlair's haven't lived here long enough just since last fall to really see the amount of wild animal traffic we have coming through. But we have deer and coyote and foxes that dart through our yard on a regular basis. And all it takes is one of these foxes to run right in front of a horse and you know it can rear and throw a rider onto our property or onto the field's property. there's just not enough space on this driveway to really be protective of the butters

and and reduce that risk of liability. Um so [clears throat] that's really one of the main reasons. Um and also there's a risk for the town as well since we're coming to you. Um presenting the safety concern and the lack of a buffer zone. um you know if there god forbid was a horse that threw a child or something and they cracked their head open or you know had a horrible injury and or death um there certainly would be a lawsuit and usually in um a riding stable because I've checked the other riding stables there is a release form um and a hold harmless agreement by either riders or borders where they cannot hold the stables responsible for any injuries occurred But that doesn't protect us as butters a butters. So even if there was an accident and a child or something was thrown onto our property and suffered death uh they may not be able to sue the but they would be able to sue us. And so

we're asking for your protection um on that by forbidding the the um operation of this business on this driveway. Um, if you do want to see any um or understand the dangers of horseback riding or look at the liability risk, you can look at some of these forms that are online at the um Springville Springpoint Farm in Durham. Um, the other is disturbance to our and our neighbors peace. Um, we live out here in the country and um because we're on a fairly secluded piece of property, we have trained our dog to alert us when there are intruders um in our area. And we're certainly responsible for our own dog, but we have noticed that the couple of times that the did walk their own personal horse down on the property that our dog was very stressed and started barking. We anticipate that with every horse that goes by, this is going to be an issue and the dog will be barking towards the field property and creating

a disturbance not only for us but for them and for the riders. Um, you know, the dog barking is our responsibility, but we don't feel that we should have to change our lifestyle or bring our dog in every single time a horse goes by. Um, the the few things that I've asked Ariel for a little bit of concession on is, you know, gee, could you turn your horses around a little bit further up this road so they're not coming right next to our house? And she refused to do that. and and we're just asking for some kind of, you know, some some kind of concession there um so that we can minimize the the disturbance to ourselves and to our other neighbors. Um and the possibility that our dog might make a horse throw a person. Um

so we we think that uh oh and also privacy and land use. Um a person six foot up on a horse coming by here is just going to be going very slowly. We have a very private backyard. We're taxed [laughter] based on the quality of our u our yard as well. We are used to having privacy here. We'd like to see that privacy maintained even though the business is operating behind us. And we think that um a good way to do that again is for you to um put you know a condition that the operation of the business not be on this driveway uh that it stay back in the back where they have their riding ring and their corral. Um we feel that the privacy factor is very very important to us. Um [clears throat] the next factor um we feel that all of these issues that I've just discussed can really be eliminated by not having them conduct the business on the driveway. The privacy issues, the liability concerns, um you know what else? The um the

disturbance from the barking, all those things. I mean, it's going to be bad enough that we're going to increase the traffic tfold going up and down that driveway. And we're going to have to listen to these cars go by. We've got pollution. We've got dust. Um, you know, and and it's a disturbance. I mean, how would you like it next to your house? You know, think you have to think of the butters in this instance that I've had privacy. These lots were vacant when I bought my lot. No one was there, including me. So, I built and then the lot that have uh

supposedly wasn't supposed to be buildable, but all of a sudden, lo and behold, it became a buildable lot for some reason. And uh uh it got built upon. But, you know, privacy is important to us, as it is to a lot of people, and increased traffic is going to pose somewhat of an issue, but we're willing to concede that. Um, you know, we're not trying to to to be difficult neighbors. We're trying to be as friendly as we can, but we do need some concessions here somewhere. The third condition that we're looking for is um we'd like to have them erect a

6ft high stockade fence along just 56 feet of our 665 ft of frontage along their driveway. And the area that we're talking about is right next to our house where it's closest to this driveway and um in just a 56 foot range right here. Um I saw in

the application that they wanted to buy two trees and um I'll let you speak to the trees because we well [laughter] in the process of trimming cutting trees actually because we want to increase the sun. The trees are getting larger. They're large pine trees and they're blocking the sun and and [clears throat] we're trying to put in increased garden space and stuff. So, I've been cutting trees and putting a couple of new trees in there is not going to help matters. I mean, it doesn't doesn't help me at all. Um,

actually, that is the one area on our property where there are no trees. So, and this is where the sun comes. It comes up here and moves around like this. So, that's the one area we actually get sun. So, the last thing we want [clears throat] is more trees to be planted there. We feel that a stockade fence is a reasonable request. Um, we priced it out for them and I know with the two trees that they were looking at, I think they said somewhere around $300. Um, we Where is my fence? We priced it out at Home Depot.

It's like $400 for 56 ft. For 66 feet, it's really not that much. And we feel that that would solve a lot of issues for us. It would prevent us from seeing all these cars go by. The dust that gets kicked up by the cars would hit the fence and not come onto our property. It would prevent any um disturbance to our dog and and the disturbance of our dog barking at that direction. Um and it would also offer us some privacy from all these cars that are going by that are so close to our house. So, um we really feel it's a reasonable request and we hope that you'll take that into consideration. Did you excuse me? I'm sorry. Did you bring that the slip from Home Depot by chance?

I did. I did. I have that. I've got such a pile of things here. Here it is. Okay. Could you It' be great if you Yeah, we could show that. That would be We looked at two different types of fencing. One was um it was a 6t by 8 foot spruce pine fur flat top stockade fence panel for $29.97. Now, the um the posts would have to be pressuret treated and those are $24.97. So, we figured seven panels at $29.97 that comes to $29. Eight posts at $24.97 is $199. So, the total is around $400. Um

So, but that's not installed, right? That's just materials. No, that's just materials. Yeah. Um, you know, and we'd also be willing to if you know, if they needed to get onto our property a little bit more to put that, um, because there's just no buffer, there's no property buffer there. We're certainly willing to do that. And the other thing is that we are certainly willing given the ground conditions right now and the fact that the has have expressed that they don't have a lot of money which is a little bit of a concern for us in the whole business sense but we're willing to say you know you can have until June to put this fence in. So again, we feel we're being very fair on that. Um when we try to um estimate the amount of tra increase in traffic with and of course it's confusing because now she's saying 20 lessons a week and she said 10 to 15 before. So you know we're trying to make our calculations. I used

to take my children to riding lessons and uh horseback riding lessons and and all my friends did as well. And we would drop our children off and then leave and do errands and then come back and bring up pick up the kids and then leave again. So that's four times for each car for each lesson. Um times 15 lessons is

60 times the car is going down there. Um, I spoke with the owner of the boarding stable and she said that some of the owners of their horses come as many as three times a day to feed and be with their horses. Um, that sounds like a lot to me, but if they're going down, coming back, going down, coming back, that's six times for each um person who's a border times seven days a week. That could be like 42 trips each week by just one person. And then you've got five borders. So that's a believe it or not about 210 potential car trips plus the 60 lessons that comes to 270 this is a maximum 270 additional car trips produced by the business each week going right by our house. So again we feel that putting a little privacy barrier in this very short area is the least they can do. Um,

The I just got one more, Bob. Um, the the last condition, and this is one that Ariel already said that she planned to implement, so there really shouldn't be any issue, but um, we request that the speed limit on the driveway be set to 5 miles per hour to cut down on the kick up of dust and to reduce noise and distraction. So um again the conditions the disposal of the manure properly um very important condition number two we really do not want operation of the business on the on the driveway right of way due particularly to the lack of land buffer and risk of liability and basic safety and then the fence and then the um 5 mile per hour sign and other than that we are

pleased to have a nice there's one other thing that I [clears throat] just wanted to bring Pound Road's a private road. As such, increasing traffic is going to increase the wear and tear on the road. I contribute yearly to the road maintenance as do a couple other neighbors. Not everyone does on that road, but um with the increased traffic,

I mean, I contribute to uh grading and uh plowing. Um, and I think it would be reasonable with an increase in traffic that they also contribute. I mean, it they don't have to, but it's a request. Um, you have a road maintenance agreement.

We don't. No. No. It's really, you know, people try to be good neighbors there and respect their other neighbors privacies. And Town Road has no maintenance agreement. No. Might check in. No. So, it's like the last we heard from Ariel was, well, we don't have to contribute. So, and that kind of sounded a little unnavorably to me since they're going to be starting a business and, you know, it's definitely going to put wear and tear on.

Common road gets gets muddy and it gets ruddy like any main road and and it needs maintenance. Um, luckily we have a couple people that spend most of the time grading and plowing. Yeah. And the gun club does, you know, they contribute a fair amount to it, too. But it's it's not a it's not them alone. It's it's several people on the road that contribute. and we feel that that would be fair for them to be contributing. I also have a question about their signage because she did tell me they planned on putting a sign at the end of the road. So, I'm not sure why that's changed as well. And we'll not that we have an issue with the sign, but I just was curious why that changed. And

um well, I mean, it's up to her to Yeah. characterize her application, however. So, the way we're approving it right now, the sign won't be allowed. That's fine. If she wants to change that, she can. Okay. Yeah. We have no back to us. All right. So, I have a couple questions. Um,

the wetland issue that you identified, it sounds like you're mostly telling us that it drains on the sides of their property. Yeah, I think it does. So, I'm not I'm not But I'll tell you, the whole area is wet. That's that's just my concern. I would be concerned if I were them about, you know, just putting a pile of manure there. And that

we have a wicked high water table. I mean, I had to build my foundation up because I couldn't dig it in a normal sense. Okay. So, but you don't you don't know how the property drains across how it drains across their property.

It drains it. You can see it drains as you're heading up their road. We're over here. They're up here. There's a swamp over here. That swamp crosses their road and goes into my property or our property and goes into the back and then drains away.

But you can actually see on this, interestingly enough, you can actually see on this black and white. So, is this your house? Yes. Up here. Um, you can kind of see where there's a there's a gap in the trees here. That's where the water flows down this way. And I know they're planning on doing the manure and it might be far enough away to not be an issue. I don't know. But we just don't know.

We thought we would question it. We're not trying to accuse or be No. Well, we're just we're trying to figure out Yeah. Whether there is Yeah. I just didn't want you to to just bypass a wetland because it is there. [laughter] Believe me, I've tried to walk out there and you can't walk through there.

That's why I questioned in the first place because I live here. And the other thing is I noticed that on the plan that they submitted that they really didn't put the entire driveway. And if they are if this is considered part of the site of the business, it seems to me that the driveway dimensions should be included and the information regarding our abuing property and considerations for the neighbors should be taken very seriously in this matter particularly because there isn't a buffer zone there to protect us from liability of of

So how far is your house from the road from the well from the right? from the rightway. I would say the uh house itself is probably uh 60 ft 65 ft from the rightway. Um this I'll show you on this little map. See, we have trees right here. So, we're not concerned about buffer zone there, but right about right about at the end of the garage, it it's clear all the way along here. So, and and we walk out this door and we use this area and our deck is viewable from this area. So that's why we're asking for, you know, some kind of a of a barrier there, a visual and physical barrier to to help protect our privacy. Basically,

do you have copies of that or could we take copies? Copies of that. I I think we've got additional ones. So you want to take that one or I don't know if you the one I copies just so we have them down the line. Actually, if you take the one she wrote on that' be great.

So, um, my other question was with regard to liability, as I understood it, you were concerned that riders would get bucked off or dumped onto your property. Yeah, exactly. Ours, that's the concern. It's such a narrow driveway that if a truck comes down one way and a horse is on there, um, where's it going to go? I mean, it slopes off on each side and then our properties are right up next to that. So, it's like that horse could throw somebody onto our property. Okay.

Well, plus you got pound road that's constant traffic. I mean, they got, you know, the gun club and Yeah, but that's not associated with this. But yes, it is. What do you mean the horses down the end of their driveway? Well, I don't know if they're planning on d on going on Pound Road. We haven't discussed that, but

no, but we're more concerned about the operation of the business right next to us and we don't think it's necessary since they have all that land out back. [clears throat] Why would they need to come right next to us and cause a disturbance and we just don't get we don't understand.

So, how wide is the driveway? We haven't measured it. We were hoping that that was going to be submitted and that you wouldn't wave it in your application. The right the rightway is 50 and it just slopes right down. Yep. And there's water

and the on the sides it's just grass. No, what's on the sides? Rocks, trees, there's stumps and all kinds of stumps, things that could impale somebody. I mean, right. But I'm asking serious about this. Is there vegetation that's growing up on their property?

On their property? No. No. So, they've got a 50 foot right away. So, there's obviously the road plus 20 on each side. I've got a survey, but I'd have to pull out the survey to find out exactly where their driveway ends. Didn't you grant them a right away?

No, CMP had to have a right away. 50 foot right away. So, if the driveway is 10 ft wide, Yeah. So, it's going to be it's going to be somewhere near 40 ft. That's weird because our pin is like right there on the right on the corner of their where their driveway starts. So, I something's not right there with that. Yeah, those zones are

and that's why we have to be on on the side. The driveway bed does not have to be in the center of the rideway. The rightway is 50 ft wide and a standard driveway should be 20 ft with cut banks and it can vary within that 50ft range closer to either side depending on who puts the road in and what they determine is requirement. So yeah, your property pin may be very close to the edge of the actual driveway bed itself, but

okay um that they still have that would mean that the majority of the 50 ft would be on the other side of the driveway at that particular point. So okay, so it could be that our driveway is closer that their driveway our property is closer to their driveway than on the field side.

Correct. So we still are very concerned about this liability and disruption and privacy and all these other issues and we ask that you please consider not allowing the operation of the business on that driveway. Thank you.

Okay. Are there other brothers that would Okay, you guys are all set. I um I can't remember my what number. 75 C. 75 C. 75 C. Correct. So, um I won't I won't I'll just be brief here. I I guess I share the concerns as far as liability goes if there was an accident. God forbid. um we live in a very litigation friendly uh environment now and I'm concerned that if if the business is

indemnified by them doing a release of you know some type of release form um that doesn't protect the abuters and if there was something um you know I would ask that some type of indemnification agreement happened with the abutters that they bear the I I'm not a legal expert but I'm some type of uh indemnification agreement is executed with the abutters that to the extent that injury is caused to the abutters you know most likely financially because they're being sued um that that indemnification agreement basically passes that liability off to the extent that it's caused by their business. Um just a consideration. I'm not a legal expert, but um I don't believe that we should bear any liability um due to their business operations. But that's really u on the water quality. Um

I got to say we live in a swamp. It's it's really um just on that other side. Um I've I've spent a lot of money. I've got a you know crazy basement drainage system that runs you know 10 months out of the year. Uh that's just that's just the way it is now. If I if I was building there, I would have built a few a few feet higher probably, but that's I don't know if the water tables changed over time, but it's just water concerns are are an issue there or we've got a very fragile water supply as well. I don't think their operations are going to affect that very much. But um we've noticed a water quality difference and spent a lot of money in water filtration and uh softener systems as the quality has changed since we've owned it. Uh we own the land we bought it about 10 years ago. So we've seen a lot of changes.

Do you you have a drilled well? We do. We do. And you know I I can't I don't want to just simply echo the concerns but I I I think there are some good concerns brought up there that indemnification I I really think is an issue the water quality right of way as far as the site itself the way I understand I may be wrong right of way gives the intent of that is to allow access to the property not necessarily to operate a business on that right away and that there is going to be a lot of increased traffic just uh as as Faith and Bob pointed out and I think we're bearing we're very understanding in in bearing that increased traffic very close to our houses. Um but I I would I think I would

be a lot more comfortable if the business operation was restricted to the major the uh main property and not the rightway. So, do you have the same privacy concerns? Not so much. I mean, I can uh Faith and Bob's house. I can see we can see each other at this time of year. We can see right through the uh trees. It's very uh light growth in that area. You know, you you can see right into my backyard. I can see their driveway easily. I'm not so concerned with that because I have a lot more setback from

from their right away than than they do. It's uh I can see their concerns. I would be concerned if I was in their if I was in their property because it would people going down that road are literally looking right at their deck. So, um no, that that's about all I have really on on that that I'd add unless you have any questions for me. That's

it. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Anyone else? Christinaclares Libby. I know it. 79 Pound Road. I am not an immediate butter. I am a property owner at the end of Pound Road. And what I'd like to bring to this consideration is a level more of not so much

personal feelings that I obviously can run with these types of projects having come from many many years with the Lewon planning board but as a resident out there for 19 years and as one of the major providers of service to the pound road to the private pound road I too have lived out there quite enough to see a decrease in wildlife so I'd like to just clear the boards on some of the things that I think will help us stay focused I do know Ariel uh professionally from my um experience with the Freeport veterinary. She was highly regarded there. She is an intelligent, well educated individual. I know this because I too used to own horses and I know the nature of horses. We have talked about the right-of-way issue and my understanding is with regards to the road, this is a cooling area. This is going to be walking the horses up and down. And again, I'd like to just a common sense aspect here. If

Ariel is even halfway successful as the abutters are concerned, she'll be she'll be very lucky and probably be able to move her business elsewhere. We're talking a couple of animals and we're talking the kind of traffic that would come during the daytime hours when the majority of us are all at work. So we are in favor, we being myself and my husband to see this agriculturally zoned area being utilized. I am not making light of the concerns of the abutters. What I'm looking to do is put a little voice of reason in here that this is a doable project. I believe if we look at some of the aspects of the concerns coupled with Ariel and um her husband's sincere desire to make this work, again, we do not see that minor piece of Pound Road being an issue. In fact, that area that comes off of 136 to Ariel's driveway is probably one of the best and most solid pieces of the road. The road itself is is a challenge, but

the gun club does provide an awful lot of funding to keep it up to spec as does my husband and another resident on the road. So again, as a immediate abuter, no, I am not going to be concerned with the same issues as the Smith Baker and Field family. But then again, I am an abutter to that road and that's a major piece. I think if we could help the project by addressing some of the concerns without becoming too financially ownorous, use some common sense. I think we can find something here where all members are going to be satisfied with the outcome. I'd hate to see the project shot down because of the inability to financially address what are some legal issues and some personal emotional issues. So I would ask that the board please consider all aspects.

Thank you. Yep. Please have applicants. could address the use of the driveway. Just tell us how it's going to be used. I mean, you heard the concerns, but Yep. Um, thank you. Yes. And I heard the concerns. Um, so we I never intend to be teaching a

lesson on the driveway. So to clarify this, we aren't be going to be doing circles on the driveway. We're not going to be going up and down and up and down. And I'm not going to try and teach my lesson with my loud lesson voice. I'm not going to be doing that. Um what I um intend to do is um let's say for example

it's a little uh it's a little child who's done a great job and at the end of the lesson her reward is she gets to do a little trail ride we'll call it and we go up the driveway and we come back down and that's it. Um I understand um I

understand the inherent risk of equin activities. They are dangerous. they are unpredictable. All of that I'm well aware of. Um at all outside of an arena um there are risks, there is wildlife, there are barking dogs, there are those things. People trail ride, people go up and down mountains. These things happen. um you have just as much of a risk in the arena. Something can jump out of the woods and spook the horse. Um something a loud noise could happen or they may just spook for no reason. Maybe something's hurting them. So, I don't I would never want to and I

don't feel like I'm putting anybody at I don't want to put any of my riders at an increased risk of um injury. Um if so yes they could fall off on the driveway, they could fall off in the arena. So um I understand what the you know what both the butters are saying about um if a rider falls onto their property. I if I was them I would be concerned too. But my riders aren't going to go flying 50 feet through the air. God forbid. That's too far. Okay. they're not going to get dumped on their property because we're not riding on their property. And

the ride the rideway is 50 feet and like we said the driveway is 10 ft wide. So there is at minimum 10ft buffer even if it comes relatively close there is a buffer at the end of the driveway does widen out to go almost pinto pin but that's that's the most of it.

Um is there anything that you want to add to that? No, of course we would have uh waiver forms. That's stand that's standard in the horse. And I've never heard of um I forget who mentioned, but um something about the fac Oh, Faith had mentioned the um

um that the facility can be not held liable. I I don't remember what you said. It's called a um hold harmless harmless. Yeah, I've never heard of that. old harmless agreement which prevents them from suing you but it doesn't

writer falls off. It's on me. It's I mean I've never heard of that. I mean I curious about it because I've never heard of anything like that. It's I mean a rider falls off. It's on me. I'm the instructor. It's my property. It's my business. So,

so what's your position on the stockade fence? So, well, well, due due to the rural nature of the property, we are in the middle of the woods essentially, right? We are surrounded by trees. I'm sorry. Your tree stuff is in there.

So, to maintain that aesthetic rural feel, you know, a fence is a urban thing. It's not how many fences do we see in Durham? Right. Right. We saw So, our stance is we're willing to put up a couple trees that will grow over time and that will add to the property instead of detract from.

That's our stance on that right there. It never um a fence never crossed our mind when we bought and before I bought this property, you know, I called the town to say, you know, is this zoned for horseback riding lessons? This was my intent. This was what we were going to do there. And I never thought that I would be restricted from going up and down the driveway once in a while. I'm not going to be teaching lessons out there. We're not going to be hanging out out there, but it will be nice say, you know, oh, let's be quiet and see what we listen what we can hear out here. I mean, it's just sort of an an a piece of the lesson. Not every single lesson. Um, but it's it might be a piece of it, a cooling out after, you know, okay, you're done in the arena, you know, now go walk up and down the driveway, cool out. It will be a good mental break for the horses as well who are just used to being out back and seeing that. It's a

good visual, you know, stimulation. um but but not a safety um concern and I would never want to put um my riders or my butters in any kind of risk physical or liability wise. So here's where I come down on it is I given the information about the driveway I don't have enough information to make this decision. No, we went through the checklist with the idea that we were evaluating what was happening on the property with the additional buildings. Um, I'm happy to consider the driveway in it, but I need more information. So, and the rest of the board, we can talk about that as well, but so I need to know we've got a 50 foot rightway. Are you 10 feet from the Baker Smith side? Are you 15t from their side? I I just need more information. Uh, so that's kind of where I am right now. I don't have enough information to evaluate this application and I know you guys have been back a couple times and

this is frustrating. Um, but that's where I am. I just don't I don't have enough information to evaluate the information that we've gotten tonight. I'd almost like to have a site visit. I might not be a good idea. Yeah, that I mean that's that's my issue. I'm having a hard time visualizing.

I mean, I've had descriptions. Um, but I think a site visit would make a lot of sense. Absolutely. We have a better sense of sort of what we're what we're up to here. Yeah. So, unless you um want us to proceed on the limited

information and I'm telling you I don't have enough to vote to approve on what I've got. Um I would suggest that we table this with your agreement. Do we have enough time? I know we have to decide on this within a certain amount of time.

We're okay. We're okay. We're okay. We have 60 days. Okay. So, I am going to move to table this and to request a site visit. Well, the the the um so just to make sure that I'm hearing you right. If the driveway is going to be incorporated in the business plan,

we table. Yes. Okay. If the driveway were not incorporated in the business plan, does the board have a sense that they would feel comfortable in completing the application or because that seems to be there seems to be sort of two

Yeah. two two ways it could go here and that I think the applicant should probably have the opportunity to Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think when you weave through all the concerns that were expressed, it all sort of falls on the on the use of the driveway.

Yeah. I think the biggest one is the driveway. Yeah. Yeah. And everything else seems to be resolvable or Yeah. Uh but the driveway seems to the idea of creating a business that would use a driveway. Uh and the scale is still a little hazy and I don't have a sense of what the driveway looks like in terms of um what the boundaries are and and u

and the pins are actually marked with orange flags. So if you do a site visit, you will actually see the pins now. So yeah, for the length of the driveway or Yeah. So the first two pins at the front of the driveway and then the two middle pins

sort of at the elbow. All the pins are there. Yeah, it takes a little dog leg. Yeah, that's good back. So the pin should be pretty easy to see. Because out of curiosity, I actually had the front of the property survey recently to to [clears throat] verify where the pins were just so we weren't encroaching on the mutters. And and the other the other part of that and I think Paul was alluding to that is is in as we go forward with this is your determination and how important it is for you to use the driveway as part of your business and whether you could do what you need to do without using the driveway.

Right. I I mean I'm not I'm not I'm just giving that to you. I mean I feel like it's probably the least important part of what I'm going to do there. But do but do I want to say we're never going to go up and down the driveway? That's that's

do we want to set that limit at this point? You know what I mean? At this so early in the game here where do we want to set the limit and set that precedent and that's we can I mean I don't think they have to take it out of the game plan. If we decide it's not acceptable we can put that as a condition on yours.

So right I'm not I don't think they have to decide. I wouldn't I wouldn't make that decision today. I'm just saying as we go forward, you know, that's but but by the same if if I may, by the same token, if some of the financial implications of protecting some of the butter's interests are at play, the application could go without the driveway and as their financial stability increases to the point where they could then address the abutter's concerns, they could come back before the board and amend their application to include the driveway. So this, you know, there's a a few avenues that you guys could decide to take um that that might,

you know, make it easier for everybody in the long run, in the short run or not. I that these are decisions you have to make, but it's important to look at all the sort of avenues. There's nothing nothing set in stone. When it's done, it's done. It's not done. What's done is what you said you're going to do. If you want to do more, then it comes back to the board and the discussion starts over about what's necessary to to deal with where you want to go in the future with it. So, it's not a it's not a dead end road whichever way you choose. So, just so you know.

All right. So, I move to table and to request a site visit. Second. Okay. Second. Those in favor? Say, do we want to schedule a site visit now? Yeah, we should probably right now cuz we get everybody ready. Everybody's here.

How about Saturday morning? I'm going to give you guys about 9:00 [laughter] a.m. Yeah, it'll be a little easier on us. And these are all the questions. Funny. I I had one came and went over it with Paul and it was all good. Apparently not. Um,

so thank you for your time everybody. Appreciate it. Thank you. Uh, do you do you want to coordinate the timing of the site visit or how we going to do it? How are we going to do this? We're going to decide whenever you want to come over.

We're going to decide this right now. Yeah. The easiest. Everybody's right here. Well, how why don't we just do it right before the meeting? Does that make sense? That's usually the best time. Yeah. No. Next. Okay. Next meeting. So the 6th should still be late, right?

In another month. Oh yeah. Is that April 6th? No, that would be [clears throat] at 6:30 p.m. Does that work for you guys? Oh, yeah. That's fine. I think it's going to take um a half hour of travel time. Oh my god. I hope not more than that. [laughter]

I know. Maybe 615. That'll be pretty quick. Well, it's going to walk up and down a driveway. 665 ft of driveway. Well, yeah. Um, I anticipate we'll walk down the driveway, but if you think there's something important that we need to see, I think we can do that.

Um, everybody should be there. It's a public meeting, so if you want to be there, be there. If you don't want to be there, we'll just wave. Um, [laughter] you'll know how. [laughter] So, I'm sorry. What's the address? What pound road?

12. 12. Thank you. There's a sign you came with. And I just have a question before everybody goes. Um, well, what Paul just said was is exactly what I was thinking is since we're here, can we um do we do you have enough information to um approve the business and then do the driveway in a separate thing. I just I'd like to get lessons started when the snow melts. And I'm really concerned that I'm going to we've got to table it again and again month after month and um

you know and I've got to buy the certified letters again. I mean it's an expense that and it's um it's this time of hour is difficult for us because we have little kids. I'm just I I'm just wondering if that would be all right if if you guys would if [clears throat] you have enough information to okay the business without the driveway and do the driveway a on May 6th or after the site visit

just well the driveway the the the to amend it to include the driveway would be a new application. Okay. So it would be the process would then start at zero again and start all over which is certainly doable but it's it's not that we can pick up part of it later and and allow only part of it now. It's

so if you and typically as it's usually understood if you fence it here the application is complete as you fenced it and any new addition start as a new application a new application to amend an approved so and I know this is frustrating for you've been back a couple times and I know our ordinance is really hard but we we need the information and it is in the ordinance it's not easy to tell what we need and we have people come in here with much less than you and we have people coming here with much more.

So, it's sort of Oh, yeah. It's easier on us the more information we have, right? Sure. Yeah, I understand. So, that's sort of where we're at. So, aside from the driveway, is there any other information, you know? So, we waved a couple requirements. You might want to go back. It can't hurt to address those. The wetlands issues been brought up. You might want to be more clear about where the drainage goes.

And after we get So, application completeness is step one. Step two, we walk through all the criteria. Are you going to create noise pollution? Are you going to create air pollution? Are you going to create water pollution? Are you going to adversely affect the neighbors? Those criteria are in that checklist and they're also in our ordinance. Some people, I'm not saying have to write up a blurb on each. This will not create air pollution because,

okay, you know, like sixth grade writ [laughter] where the manure piles things like that that was on there. guess work out of us. it and it so the more the more information we have and same thing for the buyers the more information we have the better decision we can come to

and faster the I'm sorry I just want to say one other thing the um and I did want to clear up the manure pile issue the manure that is created up and down the driveway I would I would always take care of that can be in the conditions that it's not left there um to go into people's water um sources

and and there is a 200 foot uh downs slope rule, you know, for horse manure for horse manure. And we are, if you look at our map there, the black dots, those are at least 200 feet from any standing water, any moving water. Ariel pulled the state of Maine's recommendations for horse and stabling and manure storage and so on and use those guidelines to set up on the map where she indicated that certain storage and so on would occur so that she's within those guidelines and not

creating any issues. So I think you gave us some of those. I'm not I think it's in her file. I don't know if I printed it for you guys. He wasn't sure if I should print all the guess. Does that supersede the town ordinance?

Um I don't know that the town has an ordinance as to regards to manure storage. We do section 5.4.3 of your groundwater act specifically about manure. So I'm just curious. exceed that recommended for the appropriate soil type under the main guidelines for manure and manure sludge disposal on land. Main Soil and Water Conservation Commission 1972.

So, are you talking about all manure piles stored for more than a 9-month period? That one. Are you guys going to turn over your manure pile? Does somebody take them away for you or No, we're going to spread them out on the dry areas of the specific manure piles till they break down and then it's

So, you compost them and then spread them. How long is that process? How long does it take to compost the course of the summer? I mean, so we'll be turned over every nine months at least. Yeah. At the very minimum of six months, I would think.

areas of the town designate a significant sand and gravel gravel aquafer. Correct. So, this is not an aquifer. No, no, no. That's why I order. They're terrible. They're terrible. That's why it's called They are. No, I agree with you. It's great.

Thanks. Okay then. Okay. So, we are in agreement. We're going to table this and Yes. up there. And they're going to bring with them when they come back, right? Yep. A deed and maybe some additional information. And then hopefully this is the last.

Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you. We still talking 6:30 information. He won't remember a thing, right? 615. Maybe I' I'd rather do 615. You could leave me. Well, I know. [laughter] This is mine. The rest is yours. Okay. Here, I've got the um

Okay. Thank you very that this I mean good thing we're here. It's all right. We um we'll talk to make sure everything's all set for you. Site the site visit shouldn't take too long. Do you mind if I just drive down the driveway and back?

Absolutely. Just to see. Oh, please. I I don't want to in people trying to I don't want to bother you. We have two kids under five. You won't be bothering us. [laughter] We've got to fix these ordinances. Like, we cannot keep having applications like this. We can't. This is not good for I mean, the last one came back before us three times.

This one will be three times. I mean, these ordinances suck and we need to do something different because it's not fair to them and it's not fair to us and it's not fair to the abutters that we're making stuff up on the fly.

Yeah, this is this is bad. That's why the $5,000 that's in the uh new budget. Wow. So, while we're speaking about ordinances [laughter] Yes, we should talk about that. Um the growth ordinance is have a growth. We do have a growth ordinance.

I just pass the rest. Of course, it's separate from everything else. Yes, it should just be eliminated. It's so far out of state requirements. It's supposed to be re-evaluated and and readressed and revoted on every 3 years. It's supposed to contain percentages for lowincome housing. If you want to restrict growth, there's fairly strict guidelines. There's two sections

in here on state statute for that. [laughter] You can have this one if you want. You had two. Do I have two? Oh, no. I have two. I stole one. Um, shame. So, it's just one more piece of the puzzle here that we'll need to sort out

last meeting about doing uh findings of fact. Yeah. And conclusions. And according to your bylaws, that's a requisite. the last one. So I maybe you can kind of guide the board [clears throat] through what you see that format being and and setting that up if

so let's talk about that. We can do that a couple ways. We can have the applicant create proposed findings which considering the quality of the applications we're getting that's not going to work. We can [laughter] we can ask Paul to do it, which you know because I'm sure he doesn't have enough to do or we can ask poor Jill to do it from our meeting minutes.

I'm not a legal secretary. She doesn't have enough to do either. Um so or we can ask our chair to do it, [laughter] but definitely not our vice chair. I have no legal experience. You [laughter] don't I mean really. So it's, you know, we go the we take the minutes and so if we found No, I don't have my checklist anymore. I borrow yours for a second.

So all it has to be is, you know, finding one will not result in undue water air pollution because there are no additional air pollutants source air pollution sources. You know, it's it's the conversations. It's what we're saying verbally and it just needs to be bulleted out. Findings of fact

are just are what we're going through. And then conclusions of law are it meets all the criteria because I have set these up so there's room to write as you guys talk when you someone makes a motion you're able to go ahead whoever's doing it can actually write the motion which is the finding

with that particular thing. Um, so that who whoever manages to file this has enough room to make the notes with the conversation and the and the votes because you have to vote on each one up or up and down. And then this would then get transcribed into legible print um approved by the board and put in a file. And that's that's pretty much the sort of nuts and bolts. It's not it's not that complicated. It it allows it helps the board focus on making really simple and clear findings

because it otherwise they get hard to So we'd be okay. So we go through the application checklist first, right? Yeah. Then go to criteria. Yeah. When it the criteria is where that part comes into play. So we go through the criteria one by one. say yes or no approved.

And why? And then and why? Why? When you when you make a motion, you actually you actually make the statement. You make the finding. So we could we could put findings of fact and criteria right together in the conversation.

Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Someone would ask, you know, you you would say, I find that this will not result in undue water or air pollution because cause and then right right underneath A, you would write what you say as the reason for that. And then everyone would vote up or down, then the next one and the next one. And so by the time you're done with it, you've actually got it already laid out here. And then it just needs to get typed up and put in the record.

That that's sort of the reason that I space this out this way so that you're able to do that. And that would satisfy most any lawyer. Yes, that's the that's the the protocol, the legal protocol. So we could, like I say, we could do criteria and findings of fact at the same time.

Yeah, use the criteria for the criteria outline what findings you're supposed to go for and the ordinance. And this is that's what these are. And and so you would have it when you're done. So this yeah this just becomes the document that goes in the file when you're finished. This is what you base your denial or approval of the on. So

anyway it does it doesn't seem like you know we could doesn't seem that difficult. No no it's just used to getting into that. Just used to getting into it procedural not just someone created them for us then we wouldn't have to vote on each individually. Yeah, that's that's but like you say, that's a really difficult thing to do.

Yes, I know. It's it's usually recommended when you wind up going to superior court that you you do that for the court. You create all of the findings for them. So, alls the judge has to do is sign it and they hand it back to you.

They want to avoid him. They have a lot that I have here. Um anyway, I if there's is we done with that for now? Yep. Uh uh growth ordinance. Did we finish talking about that? Um, well, we don't have to talk about it tonight. If you look at the state that there's two sections in the two different state statutes that outline the requirements for keeping it up. So, we either need to decide to bring it into compliance or eliminate it.

Can we eliminate it? You can eliminate it by Tom vote. We shall review and update the ordinance every three years. Yeah. And it has to include a certain percentage of of building permits have to be set specifically aside in the general uh both growth district and and residential rural district for low-income housing.

Uh there's a few other sort of benchmarks in there that have to be met. Pass this way. You sign it and pass it back this one. Sign it. Sign it as far as what? That's the conditional use permit for Burnham. Oh, I'm sorry.

Yeah, I'm sorry. These are the um submitts that um the landscape architect brought in in regards to doing the shots at Burnham's. I had some issues with it. Yeah. All of the photographs that he took from Mike Sunberg's property were not included here.

How come? I I don't know how come. I didn't ask, but it it's it's a it's an abbreviated presentation, and I'm wondering why. There's some conclusions that he made in here based on that information, but didn't include the physical information, which was the photographs he took from Mike Sunberg's property at Burnham's garage.

So, what was the outcome of that? Well, he's requing according to this, and there's a copy for everybody. He wants to see that the trees that the height of the tree and BM combination is 13 feet instead of 10 like the board asked.

So, we set out a maximum of 10, right? Yeah. And I set that as in the in the permit. [clears throat] And I would think it here you go. I would think the um at 18 in a year if it was 13 ft it would be there fairly soon anyway. But I was just I'm a little surprised why he did not include I stood out in the middle of the field with a poll where he was on the porch of Sunberg's properties and moved it around so he could get them in line with the one with the green tag on it that you can see here so that you could actually see what the physical elevation differences were.

Um I'm not disputing his finding, but without that information in there, it isn't that's really only one. Yeah, it's incomplete. nothing was taken from Burnham's property. What's that? Nothing was taken. No, the pro the the No, not going towards Sunbird. It was all taken from Sunbird towards Burnham's because we were trying to hit a certain point on the garage.

Not the reverse. Yeah, because there was nothing to hit on the reverse. No. Yeah, these are the revisions from the last special town meeting. So, this is the new ordinance which includes the move back in the Do we have anything going before town meeting this weekend?

Land related, land use related. I zoomed through it. I thought it was only the num the uh put in budget. I don't Yeah, I don't think I don't think that we do. Did you read one of these? um Mike Sunberg has filed an intent to appeal.

Yeah. So that's not surprising. Yeah. So that's in the process. Can we leave these right here to get Yeah, you have to make sure you get the whole old one out. So, you're only working with just Thank you. that that's a complete ordinance. So,

thank you. with the opposition and all of that is we've got folks on pretty small plots of land comparatively next to folks with larger plots of land who want to have businesses on them. I part of the problem I'm seeing is are you know either we need to increase lot minimums so that folks are on their own big piece of land and if they want the privacy, they've got it. Or maybe we need to change some of the zoning of what is and isn't allowed in these areas that have the smaller lots.

But that's a little bit difficult when the lot size standards are similar all the way through town. Well, that's just it. Maybe we need to change that and that's a bigger conversation and that's going to go over like a lead balloon at town meetings. It is.

Yeah. Zoning usually a tough a tough cell. Yeah. Because you wind up with people who have property that they think they've got four lots and you sell them all outside of the growth district or going to 5 acre minimums and they're thinking you just took 50 grand from them.

Yeah. Yep. It doesn't get very difficult. But then you have people who have small lots in the country and are expecting it to stay country, right? And you got three acres and that's the that's the that's the problem. That's the problem. Mhm.

So, do you do you set the ordinance up to allow allow people to do more with less scrutiny or do you restrict people more right from what they do? Um, and that's always that's the argument. That's very difficult. So somebody that wants to do, you know, your choices are somebody that wants to do horse riding lessons should either have to do it with a very simplified permit process that no planning board would be and or not be allowed to do

in this area. Yeah. And or not be allowed to do it on less than 15 acres or you know whatever. Seven acres is honestly not a lot for a horse property. Well, for for a riding paddic and a couple of horses, it's not a lot for a stable. It's But for a riding paddic and a couple horses for doing lessons, it's plenty, you know, but I I I got to tell you,

[laughter] Maybe you can tell the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Probably should wait. You know, it's something I've I've noticed with the issues that we've got coming up are folks who bought a small piece of property, want it to be rural, expect it to stay rural,

but have a small piece. That seems to me to be the biggest thing is their expectation of you can't change my world. I, you know, I bought my little piece of paradise and now someone wants to turn it into their piece of paradise, which is my piece of paradise. And

not back, not mine back yet. Yeah. So, it's a just a It's ridiculous. So, does the town have an comprehensive plan in the works at all or I thought we're supposed to have a comp plan committee. We're supposed to It was supposed to have been done six years ago.

Yep. Right. But I thought that had started before um Janet had started to get some inroads to putting one together, but it got tabled. It cost probably need between 20 and 30,000 to put together a comp plan. and I brought it before the select board. We need to get on it. That's we're way overdue. That's exactly the sort of stuff that and which in this particular case that's where that argument starts.

Yeah. No, agree that conversation and then focus in the ordinance to to apply because then then you've got all the tools you need for folks that want to live in two acres of paradise and the world never changes. You can say, "Well, the town doesn't feel that way."

Well, if we're going through all this effort to update the ordinances, wouldn't it make sense to do the cop transition first? Well, that no and yes, it would make more sense, but the ordinance is such a mess, we can't wait to at least get it back into some sense of order before you make large structural applications and changes to the ordinance, I would agree the next comp plan process should done. But if if you if you take the ordinance structurally and and just try to put it back together so it makes some sense in its own content, it's going to hit the benchmark about the time the comprehensive plan committee should be finished. Then at that point you can look at moving the next step into all right now where's it going in the next 10 years and how does the ordinance jive with that you know that that would be my that's been my experience in Bowdenham through the process and it seems to work

really well if you focus it that way and the comprehensive pay plan process is long a lot of public hearings takes about two years you were on that weren't you I was the chair at the end of it usually takes about I don't remember any of That's a long. [laughter]

Yeah. Yeah. That was a while ago. 15 years. 16 years ago. A long time ago. Long ago. That's terrible. And then the the other the the more conventional application we're and we're looking into doing this in Bowdenham is that is that the comprehensive plan instead of being a 10-year revision goes through a two-year revision. So that at the 10-year mark, you're already there. That's right. and it just sort of constantly stay updating it in the way that the town's changed through time and different things affect the way the town feels. It was going to do this but it didn't and now it looks like this is an important issue that we need to sort of you know bring into play. So it seems to me it'd be a good approach.

Okay, I'm done. Uh is anything required from us on the Sber Burnham the finding on whether this is sufficient? Well, just the the conclusions that we made on the on the criteria if we can get that printed up and put in the file. The the other thing one of the thing other things that we're going to want to address very soon the our ordinance does not determine whether our appellet our appeals board is an appellet board or a denovo board. Yeah. And it needs to change

a jurisdiction. Does it address jurisdiction? Is it what does it address a jurisdiction? Is it advisory only? No, it doesn't address No. The the the um it appears at least as far as I can tell and state as far as the law court is concerned. If the if the description in the ordinance does not specifically state that the board is a pellet, it's automatically denovo.

Yeah. Which is really cumbersome. And just I don't know if you guys know what that means. An appellet board would look at what you did and decide if you aired. If you aired, they would take whatever particular criteria that you aired in and send it back to you to redecide. They would say, "Okay, we agree with you that they didn't do this part." Okay? But that's all they would look at is to see that you handled yourself procedurally correct. You followed the proper processes and came to a what would anyone would consider a reasonable conclusion. A denovo board starts the the application from zero. It's like you didn't exist. You didn't do anything.

I'm fine with that because then if they appeal our findings, ours don't matter. Well, I think as long as they have proper jurisdiction, that's really how I was on the appeal board for about 10 years a long time ago. U and that's how it functioned.

Yeah. as a yeah if it doesn't specifically state it's appelllet but I would I would definitely opt for an appellet appeals board in a heartbeat just because it's expensive for the town to have to go through this process if people do it and if they and it's hard on an appellet board too. Um so my preference would be to have a board an appellet board and not a denovo board.

Yeah. It's hard on applicants pretty much. Pretty much we were asking people to come sort of redo it with us. Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's a while. It's been a while. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a while since you It's been a while since we were bed, I guess.

Yeah. We haven't made too many people angry. Angry. Got to try. We got [laughter] to keep these people busy, right? Well, I to your credit, I think you guys handled it really, really well. And I don't see any reason why it should come out any different.

Yeah. I don't know that our findings were clear enough, but I am. That's not for us to decide. No, that's right. So, we don't have to do anything with this. What? No, it was just for information that just they you know what had come through with the package and I wanted you guys to at least look at what was presented and you can put it in the for what it's worth department that was more justformational.

at town meeting, we allocated 5,000 extra to work on ordinances. There we go. The rest is payroll. Yeah. And and just ask anybody in the room that's been gone through this ordinance for any reason in the world and they'll tell you it needs work. So, it shouldn't be an argument.

That was a conversation before the budget committee. [laughter] I'm telling you, we ask anybody that's looked at it. I've been saying this for years and got nowhere. You know, one of the things in that we did in Bowdenham that that was really helpful is we we took the we took all of our applications before the board and we broke them into three different groups like the simplest group, the middle group, and the high impact group. Um, and we we focused the requirements of

the applicant to the scale of what it is that they're doing. Yeah, that's not bad. I it made a huge huge difference. You know, the other I mean the other thing honestly is the sophistication of the applicants. Somebody who's represented or anything like

honestly if they're an applicant and they've got a lawyer, I want them writing writings of fact for us to consider and then we can change them. Well, we've got at least a format. I mean, that's not a fair and you can request that of them without it having to be in the ordinance. You can just say, "Have you developed the findings for us?" You know, I mean, a lot of these I was surprised with with the the last attorney that was sitting here that was seemed to be misunderstand that they were needing to present evidence and do the usual stuff, you know. So

um there was some confusion there and I guess I wasn't sure why but so it's not a bad idea to ask it of the of those that like you say if they're being represented. Yeah. I don't think unfortunately I don't think we can require it of some and not of others. No,

but um it can certainly be encouraged whether you can afford an attorney. Yeah. I mean we can on scale. I think that's a good idea. Yeah. scope of the project, you know, and then we have to talk about how we define scope, but yep or scale of the project.

Yeah. And I've got some formats that would be helpful for that because the other part that comes into it is being a little more clear within not not the definitions, but the descriptions of what different businesses and how how they apply to that that format, you know, so you don't wind up with Walmart thinking it's a it's an easy go.

Right. Right. Somebody wanted to do a horse farm is, you know, five riding lessons a week as a stay-at-home mom has got to go through the knot hole for stuff. So, yeah. As far as zoning goes, it was talked about back in late 70s, early 80s, and it was shot down. I kind of wish at that time at that time

Durham looked a whole lot different. Oh, yeah. And at that time, it might have made more sense than now because Durham's changed a lot. Durham is changing a lot. It's becoming a lot more of a bedroom community. Yeah. Yeah.

Um I mean, I've been here. It'd be very difficult to have a business zone. Where would you put it? Yeah. That's the whole That's the whole thing. back then, you know, it might have been feasible to have a business zone, but there's no

big piece that you could put it in. But even if you think instead of thinking about a business zone, think about a residential zone. So, you know, in town, okay, minimum lot size is an acre, two acre, you know, whatever we think is enough to preserve our sort of rural suburban character. And then outside of that, you got you increase it.

And yeah, that that line is where the fight all Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I know that. That's the whole comprehensive plan process. That was that was 75% of the conversation over months. He was trying to trying to nail that

because the reality is if if you've got your own 10 acres, you're not going to care what your neighbors doing unless they're, you know, running a dirt bike track or blasting rock. Yeah. Yeah. you don't care because you got enough came up at one point.

I know. Well, you know, I would I would add to that that what one of the most significant arguments that comes up when someone wants to do something next door is how it impacts the value of their property, not whether or not it impacts them personally, whether it's going to be noisy or smelly or anything else. The first thing people go to is my value. I mean,

this person that was sitting here when she was she's been in many times and that's one of her major complaints is if they put up a business sign, my property values are going to go down 20%. I I don't see how that and but that's the argument and that's so even even though they've got the 10 acres of paradise,

they that particular argument is still going to keep coming forward and that's Yep. All right. What else do we need to do to go home? Minutes. Yes, we should. We'll get minutes, huh? Ours. [clears throat] We all got them a week or so ahead of time. So,

I heard nothing back [laughter] from any of you. I did. I did see one thing. But you didn't you didn't write me back. [laughter] Well, I know, but I saw it earlier today. Oh my. Jill's giving us homework now. Well, I'm trying to get things ex. It might just be a clarification for what I remember at page three.

Yes. The fourth paragraph that starts David Trudell. The fourth line starts with the word 13. He contends there needs to be 13 trees. Um and then the next paragraph, plant the four additional trees as requested. Make a total of 13. I just I didn't know if we needed to say in there that what had been presented initially was nine or if it's inferred because we've got math here. 13 minus four.

I said to plant the four additional trees to make a total of 13. Okay. I just wanted to make sure we didn't have to. Okay. Two different ways. Yeah, I think it I think it's covered. Okay. Oh, yeah. The um the road adoption road

adoption by the town, the difference in the subdivision versus the land use lease. I think that's in the warrant, isn't it? I submitted it so that they would both be the same. Did it get submitted or no? I flew through it. I'm not sure if it did.

Oh, I guess I guess I'll have to check. I'm not sure if it did either. I don't remember it. I read I read it quickly, but it just you know I was looking for I meant to plann and board related. Yeah, I meant it to um as far as the warrant that's out here, it's not there. The warrant was signed before.

So, we have one thing to do next week before. Yeah. All right. Well, that's all right. So, quick question on that. Um a 13. They're not coming back before us. No, the Burnhams agreed and the board required here for 10 foot.

No, I think we required a minimum of 10 foot. And I think that's why I'm going back through these minutes and I think they're correct. We said they have to screen to 10 feet on the on the garage. The trees need to be a minimum of 10 ft and sort of whatever the landscape architect determines with your oversight

and if they disagree with his findings, they come back to us. Right. I think that's what I Yeah. In other words, they it was said that he could have a six-foot BM and a twoft tree and as long as he made the 10 ft. Right.

That's what I understood that the agreement with the board and the Burnhams and not the Sunberg was that 10 foot was [clears throat] the was the benchmark was the lowest. Yeah. But that right the lowest benchmark and even though

we we because we didn't we we were not able to determine at the time with the landscape architect going at the building as to exactly what change was going to be required if any because of it. So what I the conditional use permit that I printed reflected that 10- foot

um minimum. So, I guess I'm I was uns I I didn't think the board was reliant upon the landscape architect's finding to determine the height of the trees. I think we were and we told them if they needed to come back, if they didn't like his finding, then come back to us.

Okay. I didn't I didn't remember that part. And I I think Jill captured it correctly. No lower than 10 feet and they must be sufficient to screen the area of the garage up to 10 feet. Yep. Um, so if 13 ft is required to screen up to 10 ft of the garage, then they need to plant 13 feet. And if they're unhappy with the landscape architect's finding that it require 13t, then um

13 trees, no 13 feet. 13 feet, then they need to come back to us, right? So I think Jill's Jill's minutes are correct. I want to make sure that the conditional use permit, which I did not read before I signed it, which I should have. [laughter] Um,

well, I mean, yeah, I can I it hasn't been given. I can reprint this to reflect that. All right. So, you're going to move to approve the minutes. I haven't made any motions. we will sign it at the next meeting. How's that?

Sure. Okay. information from the landscape architect is incomplete, you want to hold to his finding. Jeez, I'd like to see a few more pictures. Joe and I'm sorry I'm tired. [laughter] Wow, that's even the wrong gender. I don't know how to take that.

I thought I'm going to clear the parking lot alive tonight. [laughter] We'll let you go. keys first. Yes. Um um I'm fine with the 13 and if the Burnhams are unhappy with the 13, they can come back to us with different information,

right? That's where I'm at. They think that that feel that way as well. And that was sort of what I think my motion reflected. Yeah. That site visit was supposed to determine the height of the tree, verify that, right? And so he found 13. If the Barnums think that's wrong, come back to us and with whatever information they have that's a different than

13t. Yeah. My my the my only concern with is having taken those photographs with him that he didn't include the information from Sunberg's property to the garage to verify the 13 foot mark. Yeah, he which he should have. I don't understand why he didn't include it.

would be useful to ask him. Well, and I and I will I wanted to talk to the board about it before I asked it. I mean, my my my summation was is that it was not he could not see the garage clear enough from Sunberg's property

to I'm serious. He had to he actually had to come down to their property at the tree line to have me move the stick because he couldn't see it clear enough. There's enough foliage between the two that it was almost impossible to see in the winter glasses.

Yeah. Well, why don't you Yeah. Why don't you ask him produce the other photographs? Yeah. And it's winter, so Well, yeah. Especially if they're going to appeal it, we might as well see it now. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. See photo one. What? Where is photo one?

Yeah, he's up at the Sunberg residence. See photo one. Well, he came down to the garage to take those two pictures at the garage. Then he went back up to Sunbergs and I put on the snowshoes cuz the snow was about 4 feet deep and took the pole out in the pucker bushes between them and he said, "Go to the left. Go to the right. Go to the left." and then stuck it down in the ground so that he could photograph seeing the one I was holding at the low spot straight over to their garage. But he didn't include that was the critical that was the critical shot. I'm trying to determine why it wasn't included.

Well, the board would like to see the photo one or any others he has. Well, I don't want to see his dog Lucky or anything. [laughter] We might. Yeah, I like those. All right. I'm going to move to approve these minutes. Second.

All those in favor? Motion to adjurnn. Second. All those in favor. Thank you very much people. That was a