TranscriptMay 6, 2020 ~ Planning Board Meeting

allegiance if everyone's okay with that since we're not in person in front of the flag. Um, and I'd also like to move the minutes to the next meeting if everyone's okay with that given that we started half almost half an hour late. Is uh all my members of the planning board, are you guys okay with that?

Yeah, that's fine. Okay. All right. first thing I'm going to call the role and figure out who's here. Uh, Juliet Kaplinger here. John Simino I have not seen yet. Wes Grover here. Alan Purington, Okay. All right. Um if if John joins us, then that would be great. All right. So, the only item on our agenda today is Riverbend Landscaping. We have a new

So, it's on our agenda as the expansion of a non-conforming use, but I actually don't think it was a legal non-conforming use. We can get a little bit of that background in a little bit, but um are the applicants here? Okay. So, who do we have for the applicant?

James Hurling. James Hurling. giving us um actually, first I'm going to go over a few ground rules. Members of the public uh who are attending, you please stay on mute until it's your turn to talk. And there should be no interrupting. Everybody's going to have to try to talk once at a time. Uh given the technology that we're trying to use and members of the planning board, we're going to try to do the same. Try to only talk one at a time. Uh and we will go from there. Okay. So, James, if you want to start off and give us an overview, it'll be really helpful for me to have a little bit of history. And I was also having trouble figuring out what's existing and what's new. So, if you don't mind hitting that in your presentation, I think that would be helpful. So, I'll turn it over to you.

Okay. So, obviously I'm James Hurling um with Riverban Landscaping, but uh the property is owned by Hurling Properties, which I own as well. Um but I don't know how far how far do you want me to go on history of this property or of the business?

an existing non-conforming use, which would mean that it was permitted at one point. Bob looked through the file and couldn't find any permit. So, if if there was a permitted use, a conditional use approval or whatever. Um, that would be helpful to know.

Okay. So, well, I'll just quickly touch the fact the business has always been located in Durham. So the business was established in 2005 and when I started back in that time frame asking about if I needed permits or anything of what I need to do with the business in the town I was told at that time no permits were needed by the code enforcer which was Dan Feny. So then when I saw the opportunity to buy a property which I saw was an existing which is the lot that I'm in now which is on page six of lot 102 14 Mil Pond Road. I um was

looking into buying it and I was approached by the previous people um asked if I'd like to. So I saw since it was a they were using it as a business as well is there was a trucking company within there that was operating. Um I uh

went to the uh code enforcer before which at the time was a fillin. Um he was there uh he was filling in before the interm one which was Kelvin and I asked them since I'd be going there do I need a uh um do I need to look in anything that I want to do? I want to move landscaping business into there. So I um proceeded to go through with buying it because I was told that I wouldn't be able to I didn't need anything. So, I assumed I could keep on and going. And um the only thing was with the concern is when I bought the property, I called up to see who the code enforcer was to make sure to notify them, which was Calvin at the time. And he had notified me that um the only thing he was concerned about was the um porter potties or something for the employees during that time. And then I asked him, I'll be having equipment here and stuff such as that. And he said there was no issues. So I've proceeded to then do as

I was as business um there and when I had mulch material bins since I've been not bins but mulch material there on the property um no issues during that time I found that maybe since I saw the business kind of was looking dysfunctional and we were settling in permanently there. I just was like well I want to tidy up this lot. I I didn't like how it was just kind of unorganized and laid all over the place, especially for people going by. So, what we decided to do was we were going to start with putting up some bins to control the um

the material on the site. And that was not going to be the end of it. Obviously, we we've stopped, but we want to be able to continue to do um is put privacy in there, make it more residential looking for the neighbors. That's one reason why I wanted to do this a little something different. Also to make equipment so it's not visible for an eyes sore. So it's a little more um kind of more friendly. Um so obviously now I was approached

being asked saying that I I need a um expansion permit. So I am here now filing for that. um wasn't really looking to put any structure up there. In the plan, it says something about a future garage that was put in there to see just in the the point of putting equipment out of sight, out of mind. Um so it's not visibly seen like plows, stuff like that. So or little mowing equipment, um trailers or smaller excavators. Um during the year, the summer year, the the excavators and stuff, they're all going on jobs right now. They're all gone. We I don't know how much further you want me to go kind of explaining what we do, but no.

can you explain? I'm looking at the site plan that you drew out. Y and it has um so it has a riverbend landscaping area and tenant area labeled. Yes. Is that the existing building? Yes. Okay. And then the piece in front of that that says paved area, that's existing.

Yes. And everything else is proposed to be new. Is that right? No. Then the parking area in front of the flower bed where the well is. Yeah. That is actually there. That's okay. How long has that been there? Um since we've been there.

It was since 2017 when we moved in. It was there. Okay. In your application, you talked about on number four, you said looking to expand parking areas. Yeah. So, well, all right. So, what is that? So, off to where permeable pavers are off to the right there of the paved area. Oh, okay. I see it's sort of shaded right on the lot line.

Uh, kind of. There's a flower bed in between, which is next to page six, lot 101A, the 20 road. I just want to put a permeable pavers in there. So, so for for taking storm water and stuff, but so that um if there is an issue, I I put a lot of things on here to kind of see what we can make um accommodating to other people around. But we put that for possibly um off uh for parking, possibly for also plowing. So if we plow, we could plow into that area and all the water can kind of flow down through. Um, so basically permeable pavers, I don't know what the knowledge is there, you guys are understanding what that is, is is they're they're just like concrete pavers, but water can flow through in between them the joints and then down into the environment. So it acts still like a a pvious this grass lawn and everything actually flows a lot better than grass does because it'll take the water in um into there. The

existing is the parking area and then also besides that there is existing of like 70 feet back from the road and it's probably about 30 feet wide. about you started to talk about how you'll use the property and you have some of that information in your application um you know hours of operation and things like that. Uh

just want to give a quick overview that'd be helpful. The intention so the operation of the business would be continuing how it has been. Um, so we were just looking to contain the material that we've been dumping on there. The only thing that would be two new um areas that we would want for the um

additional material if needed, but uh we wanted to do a fenced in area app that you could see where it's notified as fenced in area. We wanted to be able to put that for our um stuff that's just like visible that's eyes sore that's not really eye appealing curb appealing like the plows like after a storm instead of having it on our paved area out so everybody can see we wanted to be able to move it um into an enclosed spot. Um,

also we wanted to be able to move anything like mowers or loader operator um, loading operating excavators such as things like that. So that would be in that fenced in area. Um, and we also wanted to put a dumpster as well in that spot too. Um, the operation hours, um,

we kind of start at 7. The guys have been kind of showing up a little early around 6:30. you know, noise is is minimal. I mean, but uh we start and we leave at 7 usually during the peak season, which is spring, summer, and fall. Um we come back usually at uh

around 5 to 6 sometimes, depending on weather, what's held us up, 6:30, but they come in, we drop off the equipment. Um some of our small equipment maintenance, switching tires, switching belts and such is done in the um uh shop and that would be done during

business hours and has been done inside. Um washing um has been done outside. I have spoken to DMP after sending in the um conditional uh use permit for the expansion, but um washing we've done somewhat inside and outside. Um I have

another idea of a plan to do for the paved area when it's done outside. Um the only time frame where it would be a little different on our hours is in the wintertime is if a guy has to come and pick up a truck or swap a plow in the middle of a storm. Um so that's pretty much our operation.

Pretty much our whole operation is done service is done off the property. We pick up our stuff and then leave. Um James, yes. in the winter time. You talk about different operation in the winter time. How what does the wintertime operation how does that differ from the summertime or when you're not doing landscaping?

So, snowstorms, snowstorms, if there's a middle of a storm, if a plow breaks down, you know, it very rarely has happened. Um, I don't think we've really kind of gone there. You know, there's a few times where I came to the shop, ran in and grabbed some like fluid or a part for for a plow and then left and fixed it out in Brunswick is what I did. So, um that's the time frame during the night when I mean it changes during that time. But we have been working there. My uh few guys that I have will work inside the shop just kind of like maintaining and preparing for for next year. Um, we've just our Walker mowers. Usually what we do is we we disassemble them and we take the engines quickly over to a mechanic and they kind of clean it through and then we put the engines back in. Um, and go through it that way. But that's all done inside. Does that answer your question?

Yes, it does. Thank you. to the DP about washing your trucks outside. What did they say? Did I get back to you? So, yeah, I did. I talked to um Fred Galant from the D. Um ve very helpful. Uh so, Fred was kind of giving me a lot of information. Um and he basically said there's kind of like no really like laws or anything. There's just guidelines um onto that. they would like to see people kind of following those rules. Um, so what I came up with suggesting is I made the idea of the permeable pavers thinking, you know, where it can go down through there so it wouldn't be going down towards the stream in the brook. He he kind of like he liked the idea for just washing, but if we were to do undercarriage washing, he asked if we could do like something else. So, I came up with a way on the pavement area, so it wouldn't collect storm water, but we would have a drain um collection that goes on the surface

of the pavement that would then flow through a pipe off to the side where I can have a storage tank on the property, which would store and seal the um any of the wash during that time. But he would ask, I mean, we could leave it open, but he would ask that it be closed off during rainy times when we're not using it so it doesn't fill up more. So then we have got it contained and then we can have it disposed of you know just like your waste water and stuff like that. So, um also inside the garage there will be

a um which we found um and kind of shocked. We were told and we were looking at it that the drains with inside were tied to the septic tank which is not. So, we are going to we are going to tap into the existing septic tank and seal it, which he said was possible so it can be contained in there and we can have that disposed of as well. And he he loved that idea. He thought that was a great idea as well. He said that we could still have it running like it was out into the environment, but if there was a spill or something, you treat it inside, but you would also go outside and at least do a a policy in place to be able to treat that. So, it's not recommended that you have a tank or anything, but he says to at least have some plan in place so if something happens so you can be able to contain it. So, I want and I would like to be able to use my existing sept tank to be able to control that and contain it. Um,

especially where we're near um, you know, Mil Pond and then Dire Brook. Um, and I originally thought that was happening. So, when I found that out, I quickly wanted to change something like that. So, right now, we're not using the drains inside. I've made that note because I was not not quite happy when I found that surprise. Um, I don't want to get too far ahead if you have more questions.

So, Jame James, would you be washing off vehicle in the winter? The other part is the winter time with salt accumulating on vehicles. Would you be washing that off or what is your plan there? Yeah. So, what usually has happened is we've washed some of the trucks have gotten washed in town and then come back and I kind of tell them when they just come back from the road and everything, I kind of just want them washed off again to keep that salt from rusting us. Um, but uh what what has been doing is

it's just we're washing the the top surface of it and washing it off. We haven't really done really degasing them or anything like that, but yeah, it does it does go down the um the driveway. Yeah. And it does go to where there's the existing drain drainage where it's right attached going under 22 Mil Pond Road of lot six of 101A. So, my idea was to have that drain collection um before to capture it before it would go there. So then I could be able to store that. And that's where um Fred Glant and I uh came up with that idea.

I think my main concern would be in the winter when the surface of of the earth is frozen and if you're washing off vehicles and is it going to go directly into the mill pond versus versus going into a tank. Right. Right. No, and I understand that definitely. Um so that that could be either we could wash um them inside where there is room enough to that and it can be able to we can be able to contain in there but also in the outside where we have hot water hot water um

pressure to where we can have that containing going into that pipe where it's just on the surface. And plus that that pavement right there even when the sun's shining gets dethawed really fast. We don't even have to use anything. it it's thought out fast even if we don't touch it for a while. So the pipe would be on the surface and then the tank would be right next to the pavement which would be right inside the um the uh tank. And if we're washing off those vehicles and it's got the salt residue in it and the water going through, it won't necessarily freeze. So in the winter time, he says, "As long as you maintain that and making sure and obeying those rules to make sure it's flowing correctly in there and it's not overflowing, then then we should be okay." I did ask him if I needed any permits or or um uh licensing or to get

it certified. He said there there was no need as long as you're following our rules and that you just go through the um the codes of the the town. So he said for what I was doing was kind of going above and beyond others. Um so even even what's recommended in public public works as well.

Thank you. Yeah I was going to ask if any other members of the planning board had questions at this point. Go for it Juliet. Thank you. Um, I'm looking at the site plan that was given to us. Um, to the left of the area identified as parking area. Um, it looks blank on the site plan. Is that proposed to be additional

parking? Um, looking at an aerial, it does appear to be already used for I don't know if that's pavement or gravel or what, but gravel. It's reclaim slash was of it was our we had what you're seeing on the Google map is it shows one of our piles the mulch pile that we had and then we were kind of doing some others. We used the pavement for some temporary temporary um uh um material and all but um we're

we're trying to we want to control it and we don't want it just out there so everybody sees the pile. So we want to be able to control it kind of hide it. The bins were put um to kind of keep it so it doesn't erode or anything. Um yes, they're big. They're heavy. They're an eyesore. I understand that. But that's why we were going to originally put a fence and things. So, we were going to be going that route, but when reading it, we didn't know we needed a permit. But I guess do we need a permit also for fencing? That's where my question would be.

Okay. So, sorry, go back to my question. What is going there in that? Is it going to be additional parking? Is it just going to be grass or what? In that blank spot, gravel. Gravel. It's going to be all gravel. Gravel. Yep.

Okay. And no pavement. In and out, turnarounds and whatever. I'm sorry. What was that? Intended for like parking or trucks pulling in and getting materials and coming out pulling in trucks. Our trucks pulling in to just get the material. the guys that come and have delivered the material.

Our guys parking. The parking area that you see that's existed next to it is where the employees have been parking. I kind of want to take them off that route. Um just just to kind of leave more space so it's not looking like that all day, just to off to the side. The trucks we've been parking on the paved area, but to me that's an eyesore. I kind of just wanted to kind of trying to figure out a way where I can kind of hide them from the fenced area that I have kind of in that location

where it's gravel. Okay. And one other question. Did you say you were you're going to in implement a catch basin of sorts? Yeah, kind of just like a septic tank and sealed it off. So the D and I came to that conclusion to kind of have so I'd have two of them on the property. One out front on the right side kind of within that permeable um area that I have. So then it could be having a cap that's closed so I can access it easy and then going in there where it would be sealed and then on the top of the pavement it would drain over into it. So it would be it would be like French drains that are on the top. They're like steel or then we could be able to cover them too. And then the second one would be in the back where the septic tank is.

And the property, does it flow to the east? It flows. Yes. Southeast away from the away from Mil Pond. Yes. Except for the paved area, the paved existing area. No, it flows. Yes. The paved area flows towards Mil Pond, which is east. The rest can be made to flow to the back of the property.

Okay. that's right up against the paved area and not too far from the area you're hoping to permeate your saltwater wash off your vehicles? Is that a dug well, a drilled well? What's that? That is a drill well. Um, it's case ironed down far enough. Uh, the inspector that I had coming in told me there's no no concerns on that

that serves the tenant and the and your business. Yes, plenty. The tenant is a single lady. So that's residential. Residential. Yes. Gotcha. Uh what kind of materials are you storing on site? Uh materials you said bark mulch.

Bark mulch. may want to use one of the bins just for a lom if we're coming from a job and we have too much lom to just drop like we have before where we've dropped the lom there to kind of like just pick up for the next job instead of leaving it in the truck and then if it's rainy day or something because that was the other thing that the asked me to do is if we're storing it to have it combined in and then just try to put a tarp over it so it doesn't erode out and just to have it contained.

planning board right now? Hey, hey, James West here. Um, you've got uh in the bottom right hand corner of the plan 251 ft from the corner of the of your property to Mil Pond. Yeah. So, did you that or I'm just curious how you got that number? So, uh, Google Google Maps and by my site evaluator. So, I know that there's a question as in when I was reading the ordinance thing horizontal. So, when I was looking at it, I measured horizontal, but I measured to where the water is flowing down through. So, it is 251 ft down that

way down to the road to Mil Pond. That's where it is. But if you go across Mil Pond Road to the water to where the water is of Mil Pond, yeah, it would be within 250. I'm guessing you don't. Yeah, I did. I I did the Google thing and I also talked to surveyors and I talked to another um site evaluator. So Mil Pond is less than five acres. It's actually like 4.1. Mil pond itself is

okay. did they mention anything about um you know a wetland delineation? You say a site evaluator. Yes. So D when I talked to to Fred to ask him about that, Fred said that Mil Pond is not listed on the state of Maine as a um a great pond anything as so it

would not be a concern to their state guidelines. Um it's actually within what I'm looking at and what he saw. He said it's actually I'm within um speculation of what they're looking for. So, I I would be obeying by as long as I'm definitely containing um and which I didn't know about, he does want tarps over the if it rains, he wants any material. Um he didn't mention, but the the idea of putting in a retention pond something, they like that. So, it would be filtering out and capturing any silt that would go. He liked that. Um but the

concern that he had was with if I was 100 feet within 100 feet of the um uh water frontage. Okay. So you mentioned site evaluator. Did that site evaluator evaluate that? So the site evaluator that I had came on the land to be able to check uh my septic and all which is which I found out after I put that in. Um, I am going to need a new uh septic uh system uh and

a leech field. The leech field is because the leech field is just outdated. Um, and it it's it's the hemlock plank. So, I and plus it was way below grade level. So, we're going to abandon the field and we're going to abandon that septic tank. We're going to put a new septic tank. I did send that to um Bob when he finished that and he sent it to me on Monday, the site evaluator um and he made up a new plan of where the leech field and the um the septic

tank would go. Um and it's still going to be within the existing specs. So it would be for a four bedroomedroom housing and uh the leechfield would be too. So it' be the same tank of a thousand gallons. Okay. And then one more thing. I think this is in aquafer. Is that right? Yes. Aquafer.

It is in aquafer protection. Yes. Okay. Yeah. You have that on the on the application. Thank you. Yes. So actually I was wondering it looks like the corner the front corner of your property might be in resource protection.

So that's an R. Yeah. So, it depends on how you look at a map or which ones because some of those are property maps and if you look at them, they don't necessarily line up well and the way I think it kind of shifts a little bit. Um, that's something that the DB was kind of telling me too and um my site evaluator was telling me is that if if you look at that more clearly and with your your um my property map, I'm actually just missing it.

based on what? That's based on what DP and my site evaluator. My site evaluator was Stephen Mardi. Yeah, he works for the uh town of Portland. He was there mostly for um he's done a lot of these, but he was mostly there for the septic and everything. So, I took his information and guidelines um of asking him questions about that because the questions came up that possibly that may come up. So, he was able to answer that, but he doesn't do this now full-time. So I would have to find somebody else which I kind of already have.

So he measured from your lot to Dyerbrook and to Mil measuring. Well, so you said you based it off of what the D said and what your site evaluator said that it the corner is not in resource protection. And um did they measure on the ground or they were just looking at maps and what

looking at maps and looking at your guys's maps of the uh topog where it shows the green. So where they saw the green they didn't see that it it it interfered with that. So I don't know what your green is measuring. If it the green is measuring that's the 250 that's the top of it that's or is the top of the green and then that's 250. I mean, but my concern is also with this

ordinance that came up. This came up in 2019 of December. The this version was voted in in 2019. We had the same or very close definitions of shoreland previously as well. Okay. are not um perfect. You're right. But I'm looking at the tax map which at least tries to overlay the resource protection over the tax map. And it looks like the corner of yours is. So that may be something we talk about in a bit. Figuring out. Um,

do you know how far you are to Dire Brook? Dire Brook. Yeah, that's definitely good. I We got to find out where Dire Brook starts because is it the bridge or is it beyond the bridge? Because then I'd be 200 more than 250 ft.

Okay. Estimating wise, not bit. Um, anyone else on the board have any questions for now? Okay. James, do you have anything else that you want to talk about before we open it up to public comment? be able to make this property so it's more less um less less ugly curb

appealing, I guess, and more curb appealing to the area. That was my whole kind of initial of what I was trying to do. um and try to go forward and and um make it so um it's not something of an eyesore driving by. Okay, James, have you seen the two? We had um two letters from neighbors submitted to us. Have you seen those?

Yes. Okay. Okay. Um, if there's nothing else, then James, I'm going to let you take a break and we will open it up to public comment. Sounds good. Um, thank you. Thank you. All right. Do we have any members of the public who would like to speak? And if you would, would you please just say your name and address?

Yes. Philip Laflam, 808 Royalsboro Road. Okay. I am the house. I'm not the house but the house in front of James's u facility. So I'm direct the butter to him. Um I wish James well in all that he does. And I think one of my concerns was is that, you know, one day everything is fine and clear and then you come home one night and then you see uh the bunker as I call it. Um which is

and he admits it is an eyesore. It's an eyesore for if I plan to sell and I did have a seller, but once that was up, that went down the tubes. But I would like to see James include in his plans um as far as that bunker goes that on the westerly side and north side that there be yearround foliage such as like evergreen trees that would be planted close enough to each other to hide that area then I don't have any issue at all.

But to look at that site number one is is a pretty good eyesore. Number two, I have a question. Was he originally from what you said at the beginning, he already had a permit? Is that correct to do all this? No, there was no permit that we have on record. He asked several of the passcode enforcement officers and sounds like maybe he was given some bad information.

Okay. All right. Um, I think that's that's about it. I mean, it's been a very thorough conversation and he does have a plan that just seems like 1.4 acres is pretty small piece of property to do everything he's planning on doing. Um, again, I'm, as I put in my letter, I'm concerned about any children walking out on that easterly side of that bunker. Uh

it's nobody's going to see them quick enough to stop if they're out there. Um but anyway, my my concern is simply, you know, watch the children, but I would also like something put in writing that he would cover up this bunker on the easterly side and the northerly side as well. And then uh you know we're neighbors, but I think we've talked once since he's been here when I was introduced to him when they sold the property. And all we talked about was that he was going to have a few truckloads of uh mulch and if I had a problem with that and I said I do not. Uh, I do have a problem with all the the bunkers that are there and um and I hope

that you know there's no further businesses established that's going to confine that property any further. But thank you for the time. That's my opinion. Mr. Llam, have you seen the the plans? Um, Mr. Mr. Hurling proposes to put up a fence along the side of your property

um between your property and the bunkers to fence that off. I have not seen that. And again, as long as the fence is tall enough and the boards are close enough so nobody can see that, I'm a happy camper. Okay, great. Thank you for your input.

You're welcome. Thank you. Are there any other members of the public who would like to speak? Yeah, I I'm Jean Wendland and I'm at 824 Royalsboro Road. So, my backyard looks out at the bunkers. And so, I I had a couple questions. James, how how tall of a fence are you planning to erect?

am I right on that? Yep. So, that would cover the um that would cover the blocks. It would be those are six feet tall right now, so it would definitely cover it. I'd like to, but I didn't know if there was problems or whatnot, but I don't know how

I I I doubt six feet would cover the view of the bunker from my yard or my deck. Um and then I'm wondering from the town board what assure reassurances we would have that if the plan construction was permitted you know at what point uh

or what reassurances do we have that that the the beautifification part is done or not done? And I'd also like to add to what Philip said about the trees. If you put them on the north side, too, that would be better because I don't think a six-foot fence would cover much. James, when you and I talked last night, I I James stopped by, which I really appreciate it, but uh I pictured a much taller fence than six feet, so

Okay. Well, I mean, as far as what happens from our from our decision, our decision will if we approve it, it will include whatever conditions we think are necessary to meet the standards of the ordinance and from then on it's up to our code enforcement officer to enforce that. So, which he which is how we wound up here. So, I think he's doing his job. Is there anything else, Mr. Wlin?

No, I guess not. Okay. Thank you for your comments. Is there anyone else from the public who would like to comment? a 22 Mil Pond Road and um uh James and I have um conversed um been neighborly um in the two years or so that we've lived here. Um and um let's see. I guess I was a little surprised by the bunkers as well and we've talked about that and he's explained his plan to me and and I think that um his intention to put a a

fence along our our side of the property. Uh that seems reasonable to me. We've talked about what that would what that would entail and um and I think that his intentions are good there and um and uh I guess it seems it seems

like um as long as he's working towards improving the uh the look of the whole place. Um uh you know I'm I'm okay with it and on board with with what he's what he's talked about. Um, so, uh, I just guess I'm any other members of the public who would like to speak?

Royals Royalsboro Road. Am I able to ask another question? Sure. Does the planning board consider the height of the fence in in this plan? Uh we have a set set of criterias that we go through. Um and if the fence comes into it and we feel like the fence is important to meet any of those criteria, we can require it to be six feet or larger or whatever we think is necessary to to meet our standards.

questions or comments from the public for now? comment which means the members of the public um cannot participate anymore. You're welcome to continue to watch. James, after hearing that, did you have anything else that you wanted to say before the board starts deliberating?

So, no, I I definitely will be more than willing to take in consideration what the the neighbors are requesting. Um, I mean, I I would more than will willing to be open and that's that's why I'm trying to have this plan in place to be able to make things and and what had Philip had explained with the um the bunker of that road where it is, the road moves over to a side to kind of go around where 22 Mil Pond's driveway is. um there there if if that's what he's talking about that area or it's the bunker of that I put up. I'm not sure which area that was. But the reason why I want to move um into that area where the bunkers are with like possibly storing some of our equipment there is because when the guys come out, people are speeding up that hill and they're they're really kind of coming up quite quite fast. Um, no point towards them, but I was thinking of safety and people coming out for them

backing out. My guys, that's why I've kind of had them turn around when they back in and coming out. But, um, I wanted to move them so they're not close to that hill where it drops off so they could be able to come out easier with the equipment in the trailer so it's more visible. Um, and the fences, I mean, whatever the board says go up another foot or so, that's that's I could do that, but um, with the way I measured it with the six feet of those bunk ground, I was going to raise a little bit of a burm to kind of get a little bit of a height on the, um, on the, uh, cement blocks to kind of block it more. and evergreens. Yeah. My only concern is I could do evergreens on uh Philip on page 6 lot 101 of 808

Royalsboro Road. My concern is that if I put something in there, especially evergreens, there's other trees that are there and that it could be too shady for them. So, um, for putting quite a lot of evergreens there, um, it may be too much to where I'd have to kind of maybe thin out those trees. I don't want to do that. Um, I could definitely put those evergreens in there along with the fence and hope those evergreens will definitely grow to be able to help that screening of what they're asking. I

think that was about it. There was also a fence on the other side of uh 22 Mil Pond Road and we both talked about um also doing landscape on the other side as well of that fence. How tall are the bins now? Six feet. Six feet. And

each block is two feet high. Okay. Will you be removing any vegetation that's currently on the property? Uh no. We we honestly we removed one tree that was just kind of that was going to be leaning towards it. It was a small little tree but it was leaning towards we just saw it as a issue and we removed that one little tree and it was we did that but as you mean plants and trees. No.

Okay. Members of the planning board any more questions? Okay, James, thank you. Um, and thank you to the members of the public for providing us the information. Um, James, did you see the photos that Bob took of the property for us?

No. No. Bob, do you mind emailing those to James? Can you email those now so he can see what we also have in front of us? to add before we start talking about this one? Okay, unmute me. Oh, there you go. Oh, are you not on the computer, Bob?

No, I'm on my phone. I don't have internet at home. Okay, then I'll make sure I unmute you. Sorry about that. Um, can you email those to James? Those photos? I I can do that tomorrow. I can't do it from home. Okay, James, what's your email address? I'll send them to you.

Uh, info at riverband landscaping.com. I do have one I do have one thing I'd like to talk about though. Okay, go for it, Bob. And it would be whether or not those blocks are considered a structure and the setbacks if they are.

Oops. you can see what we're looking at. They're just photos from the road that Bob took um of the bunker so we know what we're talking about. All right. So, board members, I put down a couple. I did not do up draft findings because I struggled with this one a little bit. Um and I wanted to have some good board discussion. So the way this is an undersized lot. Um the previous use it sounds like was some sort of commercial trucking maintenance or company that was never permitted. Sounds like this um which would have required a conditional use permit but never got one. Um, sounds like this property went in with some bad advice some from some previous code officers. Did not get a permit. So, right now we're looking at an after the fact permit for the whole business. Um, I think we need to talk a little bit about the aquaer protection standards which are article 10. We need to talk about whether we think the resource

protection standards apply or whether we need anything um to figure that out. I think we need to decide whether those concrete bins are structures under the definition of our ordinance. And then from there, I think we um need to talk about setbacks and parking. Um

also that future garage, James, if you want us to consider that at this point, that will also need to go through site plan review. I know that's sort of your future plans and um but any new commercial structure will need to go through site plan. If we find that the bins are structures, those need to go through site plan as well, but we can figure that out as we go through. So, members of the board, without getting into the substance yet, do you think I've missed any of the big topics that we need to cover in addition to our regular standards?

Oh, you mentioned landscaping, right? Yeah. Part of our Yep. That'll be part of our standards. Yeah. Okay. Um, let's start with the resource protection. Um, looking at our ordinance definitions of resource protection, the relevant ones would be landy areas with 250 ft of the upland edge of a freshwater wetland consisting of 10 or more acres which I don't know that we have here. Um 250 ft of the

normal high water line of a great pond. Great pond is defined as 10 acres or more. So, it sounds like we don't have that here. And then land areas within 100 ft of the normal high water line of a stream shown on the most recent basically USGS topography map. Um, Dyerbrook is shown on that map, but um, the applicant has stated that his property is more than 100 feet, and I just scaled it off Google Maps, which is not technical at all, but it looks like it's 200 plus feet. So my question for the board is do we have any concerns that this is in the RP zone and do we need any more information before we can decide that?

the idea of developing the map showing our resource protection areas was to give the town an idea of where they are located, not a specific point on the ground where they are. Right? So, I think that the question of whether or not his eastern side, southeastern side property is within the RP. Um, I think that needs to be surveyed, delineated, figured out. You know, I mean, I think that judging by our map, it does look like at least a part of it is in RP. Um but I think that we had decided that somebody um who can identify those resources needs to get out there and do that for any property under review.

on the official zoning map um more specifically determined as follows. And we have ABC D and E. And so you think that you are concerned that his property is close enough to being within one of those setbacks, required setbacks that he would need to hire a survey.

Yeah. I mean, the first question is whether or not it it is in RP or not, right? That's the first question. And then the second is whether or not it falls within one of those six, right? No, I think they overlap. So, shoreland zoning, well, resource protection is those defined in the official map of the town for resource protection. And then shorand zoning overlay

five standards. Right. So, exactly. So they they are overlapping but they are somewhat separate too in a way RP and shoreland right what do you what yeah what does everybody else Alan think about this issue I'm I'm in agreement with uh what Juliet is saying I know that with us adopting things in December a lot of the burden falls on the landowner

to provide the information to us that it meets these requirements. Uh it may be so I quite sure this is new to a lot of land owners but we have to be very diligent about this and make sure that we're protecting it. I I can understand that when we look at a Google Google map, it gives us an idea, but it is not as accurate as what we need to have it to be.

So, when I'm looking at this, I just want to be clear that Dire Brook because there was kind of some conversations about the pond and the and the brook separately. The pond is really just a empoundment along Dyier brook because dire brook actually starts in the other side of route nine near my house and it goes all the way to the river. So the mill pond is really part of dyier brook. I you know again on Google earth I think it meets the 100 feet but I I kind of agree we might need some better documentation to back that up.

Okay, Wes, anything else to add? Uh yeah, I I think the same. um you know, we've we had had similar situations where it's kind of close and I think we all lean towards wanting to delineate um and be sure. So I'm I'm sort of leaning in that direction as well.

Okay. So James, it sounds like so basically how this works is this is your burden to prove that you meet all of our standards, right? And right now, based off of our zoning map, the board is concerned that you fit in the RP zone. Your corner um that corner of your lot is in the RP zone. If we were to find that you were

in the RP zone, um your business, I don't think would be allowed at all. I'm just scanning through that right now. Sorry. it doesn't really show my property boundary that showed us 22 that that's not showing mine. That's showing the bigger one. It's not showing the actual the one that's So the one that you're seeing green kind of there is more of 22.

Well, and that's the problem because that your lot line is not shown on that map. Um, you do look at the tax map which at least tries to overlay those zones. I think it looks like it catches the corner of yours. So, what we're asking basically what we would need to

find that it's not in the RP zone, which would be a good thing for you if it was not, um, is a survey resources, uh, as defined in our ordinance. want to go through and identify other issues or concerns that the board may have right now. But, so our options are we can proceed tonight and we can find that it's in the RP zone and we can deny your conditional use permit, which is not going to be great. Um, or you can go back and get a survey and present us with evidence that it's not in the RP zone.

Okay. Well, I'd like to know if there's anything else I'd like to Yep. We'll finish talking through it. We won't go through all of the performance criteria because we can't until we know where it is, but we'll talk through other issues so you have a list of things that we would need in order to consider approving the application. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So that way I can move forward instead of Yeah. Yep. Okay. So, um, for the next question I have on my list is if you flip to article 10 in our ordinance, which is aquaer protection. any additional information from James relative to those standards?

less than the minimum lot size, but this is an existing lot. um lock coverage. He said he's not removing any vegetation, any existing vegetation. James, do you have any um fuel storage on the property? Uh no, just oil, the heating oil. Not not No. I mean, there's fuel storage in the the truck, a transfer tank that we have inside of a truck. But I mean, it's something that I'd want to do, but I I don't want to get down that river and no, I don't want to go down that path.

Okay. Does anyone else on the board have anything any issues with the aquifer protection piece? I think the the one thing that James has already presented to us is putting in the uh holding tanks which would suffice the need for anything else because it's going to drain even in the my concern was the salt in the winter basically. Where was that going to go when he's washing off trucks? But if he has that contained in those tanks and those can be pumped out it's not going into a leech field. So that that's a plus.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Absolutely. And just going back really quick, um did you say that you would be changing the oil and and um doing any sort of mechanic work to your vehicles in the garage or on the parking lot? Did you say that you would be doing any sort of maintenance to your trucks, oil changes

in in the garage? In the garage. And that would feed any runoff or any spill would feed into that catch basin that you mentioned. Is that correct? Yes, it it could if we don't get all the oil, but we use like like kitty litter, you know, to suck take it and then we dispose of that properly with the

companies. Okay. And we uh if anything does go through there, it would go into that Yes. that proposed catch basin that well it's not on your map you guys don't have it but that's what I'm verbally saying that I'm gonna now want to be able to do

okay personally I want to do that anyways even if it's not recommended I'm going to be doing that thank you J talk about is whether we think these bins are structures so to go through it James actually has correctly cited the relevant provision of the ordinance uh in his application. And so he says uh setbacks for the concrete wall is not needed as addressed in the ordinance. It classification is in a structure. So structure is anything constructed or erected with a fixed location on or in the ground or attached to something having a fixed location on or in the ground. excluding driveways, walkways, patios, and other paved surfaces, fences, and stone or brick walls used for area separation and not as part of a building. So, James has taken the position that these are brick walls, stone or brick walls that are used for area separation.

about that? So, have you all seen the photos that Bob took? I think they're really helpful to see what we're talking about. I'd like to hear uh Bob's feedback on his determination that this may or may not be a structure.

Bob, Yeah. Well, he he probably has um at least 6 or 8 inches of gravel below and a structure. I mean, I don't know if you would consider it brick or stone. Um if it was in the resource protection, it would be a structure. um if not um it's it's kind of it's not real vague, but it's a little bit vague.

board um for that. Oh, Bob. Uh, how what if someone brings in has a shed built off site and they bring it in, which it happens all the time, and we put in a 6-in crust stone underneath that shed. Is that shed con considered a structure?

Yes, the shed is considered a structure. Okay. And one of the problems with that is if it's under 200 square feet, you don't need a permit. So I don't I can't explain to them that it needs to meet the setbacks. So you will you will see some sheds that don't meet the setback because they're less than 200 square feet.

you think? Are these structures? is the key word. Like a stone wall that you know kind of divides properties and things like that is area separation. Um the blocks that are used to make bins. It's not an area separation in my mind. It's it is being used as a structure to hold that material uh in its place and and I think it's admiral reason to do it. But uh I don't know that it gets that exemption because of area separation.

I kind of lean with what John just said. Um because it calls out uh fences, stone or brick walls. Those would all be like like you mentioned, something to separate an area. This is designed specifically to be holding uh materials. It's definitely um you know it's on the ground. Um

I don't know that that area separation covers this. I can go either way. Um, I can go either way. So, no comment. Okay. John and Wes as well. I think area separation is really intended for property separation, not a functional bin or functional wall like this. Um,

so, uh, Alan, you asked about Bob's thoughts. What are your thoughts? Well, my my thoughts are that I'm leaning towards it not being a structure. I'm leaning towards it being a containment area. So, how does containment area fit into the definition in the ordinance?

area, do we? We don't. But we define structure, right? So So that's right. We don't define containment area. vote on this, but just by a straw poll, it seems it's three to one and a half. Three and a half to one and a half. I don't know where Julia comes down that it is a structure. Um, so James, if it is a structure, I just want to point you to the relevant provisions in our ordinance. Your setbacks, so if this is rural residential, this is a non-residential use, your setbacks will be 100 ft. Front lot line, side lot line, and rear lot line. That would also that would definitely apply to your garage as well. uh even if this is rural residential. So you may need to rethink your um layout or again you can leave it just as it is. Sounds like we will probably deny your conditional use if it stays where it is and you can appeal that decision if you disagree with it. So I'm just giving you the things we think you

should think about. Uh, anything else on structure? Can you say something on that? Yeah, absolutely. So, but if you look up the definition of the structure even outside of this to even define it more even though you're going through this structure is defined as something with a roof and enclosed four walls.

It's not structure, you know, it's containing an area. It's containing. So one, so if if I don't have a that containment, if I put soils there, I can't be able to contain it. So there's no water runoff or anything or erosion on. So that's why a lot of these landscaping outfits and people that do this build these type of build these um things up so that they can be able to contain it so there is no erosion. Um that was one of the things that made the D happy. The D doesn't even look at it as a structure.

our definition. Um, so would them be kind of heard the board's feedback on where they are on that as far as that definition goes. So, James James, the tough part here is, you know, you're you've got a small lot in a residential area. We don't have industrial areas and things like that. So, that's why we have these setback requirements is so that a business use like yours doesn't get pushed up too tight to a neighbor. So that's where this is all coming from. That's why those requirements are there. And then we need to try to work with them. Um because we don't have commercial zones that you might have this type of business in. Every business in Durham is being done in a residential area. So we need to have some setback requirements.

Right. But they those blocks are blocks and that definition is saying excluding blocks. They are blocks, right? um where'd it go? Excluding stone or brick walls used for area separation. Yeah, they're areas. I'm separating areas.

You're separating materials. So again, if you disagree with us, you can leave everything exactly where it is. Sounds like we're probably going to deny your conditional use of permit and you can appeal to the ZBA and maybe they have a different interpretation. We're just we're highlighting issues that if you want to address them to

increase your chances that we grant your conditional use permit, you can. You absolutely do not have to. Right. But I'm just I'm just voicing the the reason of what they're being used for and just explaining the definition that was put forth there.

Yep. I believe the way it is and I'm voicing my voice out there is that they're definitely a nonstructure because of the blocks the way in that definition. Yep. We hear you. Thanks. All right. Um, of that we need to talk about that we either need additional information on or we have particular concerns on

public health impacts that we'll need to talk about. I think um we definitely need I think the the plans for containing the runoff and the washing of the trucks and all of that. It sounds great. Sounds like you put a lot of work into it. I want to see that sketched out so we know exactly how it would work. So I want to see it on the plot plan and I want more details in writing about um what policies you're going to put in place, how you're going to use it, what you're going to do with it. Obviously runoff into those particularly those two resources is a concern for me. Um

traffic safety impacts is our next one. Um public safety impacts is our third criteria. Environmental impacts. I think we've talked about the issues with the runoff. Um, I agree with D that your piles need to be covered and so I would like to see that in writing as well as part of your description of what you're going to do. Scale and intensity of use is one of our criteria. Um, it has to be compatible with existing uses in the neighborhood. Um, so the more you can screen those

uses uh and those items so it doesn't look like a commercial operation plunked down in a residential neighborhood, I think the better it'll be. Noise and hours of operation, I think you've addressed. Rate, title, and interest, I think you've addressed. Um, and financial and technical ability.

um anything to highlight on any of those? Any additional information? Have we seen financial for this? We haven't. Okay. So, that's one thing that would need to be added in. Yeah. I mean, I think the hard part is is everything's built. So unless

not not everything is built. No. So I think fences and plantings and things like that, anything that we'd require on that end would we would need uh financial capacity on that septic system also? Yeah. Septic. Well, isn't isn't the septic for the existing tenant?

septic. Yeah. He's already given me the design, but it was too late to send it to you all. Okay. or any other factors that you think need to be addressed? we want to we want to consider what you're going to actually do. You have a lot of future things on here. Um you know I don't I I just want to mention that you know we're going to consider those if there if there's a future garage or anything on here. Um

you know we're going to look we're going to look at those structures as well. So, um maybe just sort of really refining what exactly is going to be there. You get the retention pond area. Um but then I wasn't entirely sure. You said you might do that, you might not. Just just to really be black and white as much as you can. Um what would help us out and and you as well? So, the retention plan I'm saying might I would like to. I just didn't know if it was going to be a held back of causing another issue. Um, don't know if it's going to cause an issue with neighbors or whatnot. Um, it's something I would definitely like to be able to do. Um, future garage is something I could definitely take out. um it was just there to be placed um to accommodate anything, but it seems like if there's going to be setback type of things, it's something I'm not going to proceed on doing at all whatsoever. So,

I would definitely be taking that out. That's the only future thing that's put into place on this plan that I have. one way or the other, but just I just want to make sure that you know that anything that's that's here, we're going to consider um and want to probably see details on and and get more information on.

Agreed. Definitely. Anything else I've missed? Okay, James, do you have any questions for us? Yeah, I was just wondering if you can define um resource protection the definition for me. So, that is in our ordinance and we have two pieces. So, we actually have two resource protection zones. Uh let me find it for you.

boundary shall be those defined on the official zoning map of the town for resource protection. So, we would need someone to look at our map and figure out where that green line falls. And if it falls entirely on your neighbor's property, then you're not in resource protection. If it falls in um on a corner of yours, then it is. And in addition, we need to look at the shoreland zoning overlay district, which has specific definitions. Um, the couple that might impact you are

250 ft horizontal distance of the normal high water line of rivers, uh, which I don't think you're within. um 250 ft of the upland edge of a freshwater wetland consisting of 10 or more acres. I'm not aware that there's wetland there, but there might be land areas within 100 ft horizontal distance of the normal high water line of a stream as shown on the USGS topography map,

which that's dire brook and it sounds like probably mil pond as well if it's just an empoundment. Um, and then 250 ft of any great pond. So if Mil pond is not greater than 10 acres then it's not a great pond but we just need to figure all that out um and where you are in respect to those resources. Okay. So, my question is

in the definition that regarding the zoning map, if it lays, why am I being asked to be able to have somebody show that if it's on there or not, when it's clearly shown on a corner of my neighbor's lot, not mine. Well, I don't think it is clearly shown on the corner of your neighbor's lot. And I think that's what other folks have said because your lot line is not shown on that that map. And when you look at the tax map, which tries in theory to overlay that zoning map on top of your lot, it looks like it hits that corner.

Yeah. But we don't It's not going by the tax map. It's going by the zoning map. Right. The zoning map, which doesn't show your lot line, right? Okay. So, all right. I also just have a question of um uh voting wise, how come things were not voted on as we were proceeding through?

So, I can give you an option. We can go through and vote. What we're going to vote on is we're going to vote on the specific criteria and based off of what I heard tonight, we're going to find you don't meet them. So, what we're doing is we're giving you the option to ask to table this and come

back to us with more information to prove that you do meet all those standards. So, we can go through and vote on stuff if you'd like. I don't think it'll work out well for you. majority would have to be so even by a tie.

I I just to see I want to see a vote on the determination for what? on the structure on the blocks being considered structure or not. Um I can take a straw poll on that for you because what we technically would vote on is whether you meet the under other standards. Um so why don't I take a straw poll on

whether this is a structure. So um going through the role if I may an I just want to read that what our definition of structure is. Y and it says anything constructed or erected erected with a fixed location something having a fixed location on or in the ground excluding driveways, walkways, patios, and other paved surfaces and fences etc etc. The key to me is

erected with a fixed location. So, I'm just looking at something if it doesn't have a foundation mobile. It's not a fixed location. That would be my move these concrete blocks every day. No, I I know I know what you're saying. I know

that's on five inches of crushed gravel as a footing. True. I hear you. I don't agree with you, but I hear you. So, why don't I go through I just want to get a true understanding of what we really interpret that fixed location as. And I guess if you're looking at blocks that probably weigh two or 300 lb a piece, would probably consider those fixed. Correct.

Correct. Yep. So those those blocks are they're they're moved to mobile. So I can when I leave that property or anything, they will be moved. It'll be excluded away from that property easily. But what my argument coming back again is if those are weighing two and 300 pounds a piece, they do become in a fixed location. Well, defining though is my

right, but it's not attached. And it says after they're ex excluding blocks excluding. So if if a shed shed can weigh the same, too. Those those aren't on a fix and those can be moved around as well. Correct. Well, we heard Bob say he consider a shed a structure. A shed a structure. And I would too, frankly. Yeah.

Right. But so I understand what you're saying in the beginning where it can fall into that, but after the definition as it goes forward, it says excluding excluding their blocks. Not putting a roof or anything over them. They're just going to be containing.

is on wheels. But when you have I I can move it and change it, but I mean they would be kept there so that they would be kept privacy with the fence. The fence is actually erected into the ground fixed in there. Um I understand they're not as heavy, but they're erected into the ground to be stabilized. So that's why after the definition it says excluding. So it excludes fences, driveways, and um blocks. So what it's on for a foundation, you can call it a foundation or you can say that it's on a parking area to where we're using that as putting our material on. So it's keeping it so it's keeping separation from one area from another area. Yes, it's keeping it enclosed so

it won't be runoff. That's what we're trying to do. If we take those off, then we're putting mounds of mulch and other product around that could be into the environment. So J, the exclusion is written so that if you wanted to build, which you're in the landscape business, somebody a really nice stone wall between you and your neighbors right along the property line that you could build a nice stone wall to separate the properties. It's for area separation,

right? That's not what you're doing. So I could I could take my walls of of natural landscape and I could build those walls and retain my material in them. So what I mean is so it's a structure. You're not using it to separate areas. You're using it to build a structure to store your material to a higher pile and contain your material. It is written for area separation. That's what the exclusion says.

wants to put a nice stone wall along their property line. that James has some guidance. Um, Juliet, if we put this to a vote, would you find that this is a structure or not a structure? Do I have to vote either way? We're giving James guidance. You're not committed to it for next time, but we're giving him guidance.

Okay. Um, I mean I based on the ordinance I would say that I would lean more towards it is a structure. Okay, Wes, how about you? Looks like he's frozen. All right, let's skip Wes for a second. Alan, where are you? Structure or no structure?

Structure. Okay, John. Structure. And I am structure. Let's see if we can Where did Wes go? Oh, he is frozen in time. He's gone. Oh, we lost Wes. Okay. to do? It doesn't matter even if I go through the um with the uh surveyor to find out

the resource protection because you're going to be denying it. Correct. Well, so I think you're if you are in the resource protection, I don't think your use is allowed. I didn't actually finish looking at that, but I suspect it's not. If you're not in the resource protection, it's an allowed, it's a conditional use, but you're gonna have to rearrange your property for us to give you that conditional use. You're not going to be able to have those um you're going to have to meet the setbacks and everything else,

which which I can't on my property. You define that. So, what's going to end up happening is my neighbors are going to see material where I could put that, where I'm not, they're going to be seeing it material. Well, so here's the other problem. Even if it's not a structure, we're going to have to go through and find that you're not negatively impacting the environment. So, without your containment, we're probably going to have concerns about runoff, which the D expressed. It also has to fit into the residential neighborhood. So, if you have just piles, you're still going to have a problem.

creatively about how you can I mean, part of the problem is you bought an undersized parcel to do a business use in a residential neighborhood and it needs to meet certain standards. No, and I agree with that. When I was asking when I bought it going through trying to obey with the the town, I was told by two different it was happening that I was fine meeting the standards. So when I said I'm going to have material on this site and that I may want to control them with uh some bins and I didn't do it right off but they said I may do it with that. They said that there would be no need for that. So I was going forward with that is what I was told. So now I'm going off and especially I don't know I'm caught in a situation here.

No, I absolutely you got some really bad advice. I get it. But we also have to take into account the neighbors who do have this commercial use in their residential neighborhood. And that's part of what the setbacks were designed to protect from.

If you want to rethink everything and come back to us, you can. If you want to get that survey and leave things exactly as they are and appeal our decision to the ZBA, you can do that. Um, if you want a denial today because we're going to find you're in the resource protection, we and you can appeal that. We can do that. You tell us what you want to do.

So I would have to come back to you with my surveyor. Yes. With respect to the RP zone. Yep. And you guys would have to deny me because you're going to demi that those things are restructure. We're going to find that you don't meet the setbacks. Yep.

But what we'd also do is we'd go through and we'd find whether you met the other criteria, right? And so maybe that's the only piece that you get denied on. And maybe the ZBA disagrees with us and says they're not structures and then you get your conditional use permit, but maybe we go through and we find that you don't meet other standards.

Okay. So, what I'll do is I'll I'll get that surveyed surveyed on um and I'll try to see by talking with the neighbors to see if we can come up with any other ideas um with possibly something. But yeah, something. Okay. How much road frontage do you have there?

Um it's 281.42. setbacks. Yeah. Yeah. the piece of property. Yeah. You know, James, the other option actually is a variance. I don't know how often how likely the ZBA is to grant them or not, but the ZBA can modify those setbacks for various hardships. And that's another that's another avenue.

Okay. Yeah. I just I'm trying to I want to do things that make it so it's more less appealing to the residentials and all. That's what I want to do. and I came into this and I don't want to go down a bad stretch or cause any problems. So, I'm trying to trying to do that. So, it just feels like when I'm trying to do it now, it's making it more of an issue for me to do it. So, um as

long as I can do something, um those bins are the only thing in the landscaping industry and the DP loves them. I know. Well, and they they are they're it you're trying to do the right thing and it sounds like you've been talking to DP and willing to think creatively about your runoff and your impacts and that is all great. We just don't have the ability to modify those setbacks.

That's the problem. But the ZBA does if you needed a variant if you could get a variance. um otherwise you're going to have to find, you know, the 80 ft in the middle of your property and put the stupid bins um the way it's written. So, or again, you could you could take the denial, you know, you could pull together all the rest of the information, take the denial, and maybe the ZBA disagrees with us that they're structures. That's it would not be the first time that the ZBA disagreed with us, and that's great. That's that's not

so personal. Okay. Okay. Yep. All right. So, you're gonna get a survey. You're going to give us some more details on your containment areas and everything else. And then you're going to decide what you what you want to submit for a plan.

So, and then this would be during your next meeting, which would be in the next month if you can get it all together by then. Yep. Hopefully I can get them if they're not too busy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, you are asking us to postpone this, right?

Uh yeah. So, we're going to postpone it and so I can bring that back and then you can guys probably going to go through a denial and then I'll go through the Yes. Okay. You should at least talk to someone about a variance. I don't know whether they'll give it to you or not, but some

it's something to at least think about. James, you want to look at section 17.3 of the ordinance dimensional variance? Yep. I do remember, right? Yep. Okay. Okay. So, we um I'm going to look for a motion to table this at the applicant's request to our June 3 meeting.

So, moved. Okay. Can I have a second? That was a motion by Allan. Can I have a second? I'll second it. Second by Juliet. Um, I'll do the roll call. Juliet, how do you vote? Um, yay. Wes. yes. John, yes. And Ann, yes. Okay, great. Thanks, James. I'm sorry. This is more painful than it it should be, but we will hopefully see you next month and we'll see where it goes from there.

Great. thing I wanted to talk about was a workshop. So for workshop, there are a couple things that I have on my list, including helping make this board run more smoothly with respect to documents and notices and decision forms

and minutes and all of those things. Um, we have lots of great support, but in between Kathy and Bob and George and Tammy, but I think um, we're not using them as well as we could, and I think we're also not being as user friendly to um, applicants and abuters and things like that. So, that's one item on my list. Uh, another item on my list is the

conditional use forms that I worked on, the application forms and decision forms, uh, that I would like to review and possibly get approved if we can. And then the third item on my list is the 50 million documents that George has been very helpfully drafting for subdivision.

Um, I don't know whether we'll get through all of them, but I think at least the first two topics are easy to tackle. Um, the third one I think we can at least start. Kathy has agreed to participate in our workshop meeting and she's given me some dates that she's available. Oh, Wes is back. Oh,

I was just gonna say Wes is trying to get in. Somebody lets him in. Everybody start. Hi. Sorry about that. Sorry we lost you. So, we were just talking about a workshop on administrative stuff. Um Kathy said she can participate uh on various nights and hopefully we can get Bob and George to try to figure things out. I mean even things just like figuring out what the heck is the record. I I realized from the last appeal that I sat in on that the ZBA wasn't getting our record for the appeals and we're not always getting notices of appeals. Uh and it's just really administrative stuff like that. um in addition to our forms. So, does that sound like a good use of folks time? Is everybody okay with that idea?

So, if so, let's see if we can find a date that works. So, Kathy want to do anything on a Friday. Wednesday, May 20th. How does that work? That's two weeks out from our regular meeting. Fine for me. Me. Okay. Juliet, does that work for you?

Yes, it does. I'm not going anywhere. Right. Ever at this point. ever. Bob, does that work for you? work for you? Yes, it does. Okay. Uh Tammy, are you still on? I'm on. We're good. That'll work. Does that work? Okay, we can use the Zoom account.

Yeah, definitely. Awesome. Uh, does everybody want to do Can we do 5:30 instead of 6:30? Does that work for folks? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, Wednesday, workshop. Um, I'm going to try to get someone to forward all the documents in one email so we don't have to. Or maybe we can use our Dropbox, which we haven't used in a while. Um, because I I don't know about you guys, but I can't keep up with all the emails. Is there anything else that we need to talk about before we adjourn?

Yes, I have. We want to invite George to that meeting. Yes. Oh, yes, please. Can somebody reach out to George and make sure see if he can come to that meeting? I will there. Yeah. Okay, good. Great. Thank you, Bob. All right, Bob, what you got?

I have two quick items. Um, the planches are itching to get their permit so that they can send it to the state for their daycare. Um, and I think Kathy's okay with signing that conditional use permit. Um, I've given him the findings, but they're not enough for the state. He needs the actual conditional use permit with with the conditions on it.

Yep. Yeah. And that's so to fill everyone else in, apparently conditional use permits were being were supposed to be signed by the entire board. They never were being signed by the entire board. John, maybe you were signing them. I don't know. Uh but there's there's nothing in our ordinance that requires it to be signed by the board or the secret or anyone. And so my suggestion was to have Kathy sign the permit

certifying that is in accordance with our findings and conditions. So what I did is I typed up the permit. I put on the conditions that we found for the planches and I suggested that we just have Kathy sign it as secretary of our board. Is everyone comfortable with that idea? Yeah. Okay. So, Bob, have her sign it, please?

All right. And the other one I have is I have um a homeowner in town that is wants to do a multi-unit, but as I read the ordinance, I don't see multi-unit in there anymore. Is that correct? I remember right. That was one of the casualties of the last uh ordinance reversions.

Yeah. A two family is in there, right? Yeah, there's a two family presently. He has they live in a unit and it's an old farmhouse and there are two apartments in it presently and he wants to put an addition on it. Um, and he's been asking me

whether or not he can do it. So, I don't know if it would fall under subdivision if there's no multi-units. I don't know how to answer him. Well, how long have the other units existed? they have existed for a while except the last one which is being built right now.

So, the other ones have been in place for more than five years. Yes. and I looked at it as a subdivision and let him add another unit because it had been five years and it was Yeah. Did we get rid of the density per dwelling unit?

Density. Well, he has plenty of acreage. Um Oh, he does. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But if you're saying we got rid of something like that, why do we have a definition for it? On the land use table, I it's not in the land use table. Um

Okay. Yes, I think there is a definition for it. There is. It's under dwellings. Yeah. I think the full intention was to get it back in, but we didn't have the there was a bunch of things we needed to do to figure it get it back in to fit it back in. I don't I don't think we've gotten there yet.

Okay. Y So, do you think it will be in the new ordinance or should I just You can't do it. It wasn't in the draft that we had for April because if I remember right, there was only allowed in the growth district and when we killed the growth district, that's where it

Yeah. was where it fell out. So then it was where and I don't think as a board we got to the point of saying where do we want these what are the requirements to do a multi-unit. well? be crossed out. No, that's in there.

permitted. It is permitted. Yeah. How many Oh, no. Any use not specifically listed in the table of land uses is prohibited. Yeah. So, he can't do it right now. All right. Although it looks like he can. Any use similar to a use listed in the table of land uses requires a determination by the ZBA. So he could probably go to the ZBA and say I'm like a two family. Let me proceed under that.

that's the best I got for now. All right, that's all I have. Two things really quick. Um, one I was wondering what the schedule is for voting on those things that we were going to vote on for town hall or at town hall, town meeting should say.

and they were going to take those off. If they had an abbreviated town meeting, they were going to remove those. Okay. So, we just thinking whenever it gets rescheduled if and when. If and when. Yeah. Okay. All right. And then the second thing is I just wanted to shout out to Ann. Um I think you're doing a great job. I like flow of what's going so far. So, good job.

Thanks, guys. Do you know how many hours I spent on planning board stuff over the weekend? No, more than I want to do. Sorry. Well, it shows. Thanks, John. It shows you did a good job. But I do think um I think if we can have our administrative stuff figured out,

I think that'll really help streamline stuff because I Yeah, I agree. Yeah. You think that'll help? Yeah. All right, guys. Anything else? you quickly want to go over the minutes from the 22nd or not? Oh, yeah. Everybody have any gas left in the tank to do that?

Sure. I don't think I have them anymore. I I just had some Well, there's a couple of corrections, but if I may go for it. Uh, under call, we have call to order. than there are members. I think that if anybody is attending a meeting, it should be documented as to who was there. In that particular case, Bob is there. If Bob is there, it should be documented as such. And also, if we're having a an applicant

uh speak, that should also be included. I mean, Troy and Cindy were both included in that discussion. under one under uh five under new business. I just think it would be good to I know that we the conditions were emailed to Bob but it's kind this is kind of one of those procedural things. Okay, the conditions are there but then what happened to it? But at least if it's in our minutes someone could look back and say, "Oh, Bob has a copy of that.

uh what do you mean on that one? Uh indicated that you move to grant the conditional use permit and the related conditions. It didn't say what we did with those conditions after that motion. How it doesn't say what the conditions were.

No. No. No. That's why I'm not That's why I'm No, I'm not saying that. It's It's It's not saying that those conditions were emailed to Bob so that he could follow them on. I'm not sure that needs to be in the minutes. It may not be. I'm just throw I'm just throwing it out there.

Okay. Okay. Usually, isn't it They're usually on the final findings. Yeah, they're on the final findings and they go on the final permit. Okay. Yeah. And under uh nominations for vice chair, actually the nomination was from me and it was seconded by an

Okay. Other than that, I'm I'm fine with it. present at the meetings. Um, I think the MMA just put out a webinar recently on um, you know, how to do these town meetings. I'm sure you guys have probably seen it. Um, and I think one of those is that we need to um, I mean, if we're recording the meeting, that's that's good. Um, but I think even if we are recording, there should be some sort of indication of who is actually present um, during the call during the meeting.

Okay. Okay. So, I know who who does that. Okay. Any I actually I actually went back and reviewed this on online and our meeting started to break up at the end. So, I don't know if Cath Kathy is the one that creates these. Correct.

Yeah. I don't know whether if she went back and reviewed that if it's breaking up. I mean, the audio and the the visual is breaking up. And I don't know if with some of these Zooms that if we're only allocated a certain amount of time.

I don't know what kind of account we have, but usually you have an account and you can use it. You just can't overlap meetings. Um, I would say we have the professional account, business account, because I think the the free or whatever is 45 minutes limited, but we're way over that. So I think we have at least pro version.

I'm missing a lot of the functionality that I have in my other Zoom, Um, okay. So, it sounds like we are going I'm going to look for a motion to accept the minutes with the changes that they should reflect who was present at the meeting or at least who participated in the meeting.

Members of the public didn't, we wouldn't know. And to reflect that Allen nominated Juliet as vice chair and I seconded it. Does that make sense as a motion? Yes. Okay. Can I have someone make that motion? So move. Can I have a second?

I'll second that. Okay, back to my roll call. I've now lost my list. Uh Juliet, yay. Wes, yes. Alan, yes. John, yay. Ann, yes. Okay. Um, actually the minutes I'm glad you brought those up, Alan, because that's one thing I want to spend some time talking about at the workshop. Um, technically we don't need minutes if we have a recording. I think the minutes are helpful to have some content, but also a lot of times the minutes are just reiterating what we have in our findings and anytime those overlap, there's always the risk that uh it creates confusion. So, I think it would be great if everyone thought about I think the minutes are still useful to have. Um, but I I want everyone to think a little bit about what we think is important to have in them.

I I personally find I find the minutes very helpful when I'm trying to do research because sometimes that's the only place that I can find things is in the minutes. What kinds of things would they be? things that would be in a decision form, Bob, or something else.

Well, conditional use permits for instance. So, we should have formal findings on those going forward, right? Forward. But looking back, you know, for instance, with the Mill Pond issue, I had to go through all the minutes to actually see if there was a conditional use permit given and which I didn't find in a file, nor did I find in the minutes. So, that's all.

Okay. So, I think it'll be good for us to talk about what winds up in the minutes and what doesn't. Um, I personally think there's also probably a better way to use Kathy's time than re-watching the minutes if she can help us with other stuff. Um, I don't want to put too much on her, but there's lots of other stuff that we could use help with. Um, and if we can we can take that time and use it in a way that helps us more. And I'm I'm not saying that's what we're going to do, but it's something I'd like to at least talk about. And I'd like to hear Kathy's thoughts on it, too. Um, what she's comfortable doing and not comfortable doing and what's challenging for her. So, that's what I'd like to do.

All right. Anything else? All right. Can I have a motion to adjurnn then? I'll make that motion. Second. Second, John. All right. Juliet. Yes, Wes. Yes, Alan. Yes, John. Yes, and Ann. Yes, we are adjourned. Thank you for your support, Tammy and Ruth. And we will see you guys on the 20th.

Bye, guys. Bye.