TranscriptOctober 3, 2020 ~ Public Hearing (Part 2)

All right, thank you. Well, welcome uh everyone. Today is uh Saturday, October 3rd, and this is the second of two public hearings for a series of municipal questions uh that we'll be voting on uh November 3rd in conjunction with the uh national election. Um I'm going to turn off my video and share my screen uh to show uh an agenda.

got a little bit of an introduction and then a little bit of uh housekeeping procedure uh type um comments. So, there's a when when we open the public hearing portion for for people to speak, there's a raise your hand button. Um typically, if you hover on the three dots by your name, you might see a a icon to raise your hand. or if you open the participants window, which you'll see an icon for participants down towards the bottom of your screen. Um, and then at the bottom of that participants window that opens up usually off to the right, you'll see a raise your hand um icon. And so when you wish to speak, click that and uh Ruth and Tammy uh from the town office are kind of moderating in the background and they will uh keep track of whose turn it is to speak and uh we'll recognize you and you can have your say. Uh just like at a at a town meeting or any other uh town public hearing, uh please state your name and the street

that you live on and you know identify yourself as a Durham resident. um we have here please keep your comments to three minutes or less. You know I think um depending on how many people we have will kind of dictate you know how closely we need to stick to that. You know if we don't have a lot of people um like we did in the last one then you know if people want to speak more than once um I think that'll probably be fine but we'll just have to judge that as we go. Um and a reminder that only Durham residents and town employees will be permitted to speak. Um unlike a town meeting, we don't have to vote on that because there are no votes being taken here today. Um this is a legislative public hearing and the rules are a little bit um undefined for these. It's really up to uh the board and the town office how they'll be managed. And so uh we our practice is only Durham residents and town employees speak at these public

hearings. Um so we've got four major topics uh to discuss today and for each of them what we'll do is we'll open the hearing have the hear the comments and the input and uh questions or if there's a presentation involved see the presentation um and then close the hearing for that topic. That way we're kind of staying um one topic at a time. Okay.

some questions that, um, came up in the last public hearing and and that some people have asked is like why are we doing this now? You know, why not wait and why a secret ballot process. Um, so I wanted to make this part of the presentation as well so that people can understand, you know, the thought process that the board had in and deciding on this direction. So the the primary reason for why now is that this November national election really provides a unique opportunity to get a large number of voters to participate. And it's really it's always the goal if you're in a municipal office, you know, you want to hear from as many people as you can so that whatever decision is made is is uh represents the direction of the majority of the town. So, we expect, you know, probably at least 2500, if not more residents to vote in this national election. Uh, and that's compared to a typical town meeting

that's held in person where, um, we have 150 or so people typically voting. It's also true that the state restrictions on large group gatherings are still in place. Indoor gatherings over 50 and outdoor gatherings over a 100 are still not permitted. And everything we're hearing and seeing uh leads us to believe that those restrictions are likely to remain in place through next spring. Everything we're hearing about vaccines and things of that sort is um you know spring to

early summer of next year before it's widely available. And even if the restrictions were lifted, uh we think it pretty um likely that a lot of people still wouldn't be comfortable attending large group gatherings probably for quite a while until after this pandemic settles down. So we didn't want to limit even further the number of people that might uh participate in the process. An advantage of the secret ballot process is that we can enjoy the absentee ballot process. So that this is something that we've heard over the years as a issue some people have with town meeting being you know on a a single day at a particular time is that if you can't actually physically make it to that meeting you don't get a vote and you don't get a voice. So having the absentee ballot process helps us get even more people involved and and state law just doesn't allow any sort of absentee ballot process when when you

have in-person town meetings. Another nice aspect of this is that you know any public hearing comments from the previous hearing on uh September 23rd I think it was in this one will be recorded and available on the website and people can look at those and listen to them and and digest them a little bit or maybe even fact check them if they think they heard something that um didn't quite seem right to them. Um and they can do all that before the actual vote takes place in a typical town meeting. you know, all the comments are heard only by the people in attendance at the meeting and the vote occurs immediately after the comments are made. So there's really no time to, you know, fact check or digest or whatever. You just you just do it. And then the other thing that a lot of people like is that, you know, voting secret ballot means your vote is confidential. you know that people have expressed sometimes

especially on a contentious issue that um having to raise your hand or not raise your hand in in front of your neighbors um can be uncomfortable for some questions. So um this way you know your vote is confidential and the only person who knows how you voted um is you and who you choose to tell.

formats and in the secret ballot uh format in the referendum whether it's virtual or not is it does increase the burden the board feels on making sure that uh we do a good job getting a lot of information out there and a lot of notice and so that people can educate themselves. So this time around we we did mail a notice of the public hearings uh with the dates and times and how to participate uh with the issues listed that we we were going to be discussing and where people could find additional information and that notice was mailed to every household in town in midepptember. Um we have a dedicated landing page on the town website with links uh to information relevant to these questions. Uh detailed information explaining the articles to be voted on um was provided several weeks uh prior to the public hearings. Um the notice about these has appeared in the Weekly Town newsletter multiple times. There

have been multiple postings on social media, both on our site and then other people have picked them up and put them on other sites to try to get the word out. And um because as I said before, the goal is always to include as many people as we possibly can and to make as much information available uh to assist voters in educating themselves about what they'll be voting on. So I'm going to

share. agenda was the historic district commission uh question and um so we'll open the public hearing on that. And just a brief explanation of what that one is all about is the uh the the historic district, excuse me, historic district commission and in what m the number of people that make up that committee is detailed in the historic uh district ordinance and that ordinance says that there will be two alternate members on the historic district commission. Uh the commission came to us and asked if they could have four alternate members um which is fine but because it's an ordinance we have any change in an ordinance has to go to a town vote. So this question is merely asking uh to change the ordinance so that uh we can have four alternate members instead of just two. So that's really what that question is about. And so I would open up the floor now for any uh public comments or input or questions

on the um historic district commission uh question. Ruth or Tammy, you seeing any hands on this one? you're muted. I didn't hear you. Yeah, I don't see anything. Okay. All right. Going once. Going twice. hearing portion on the historic district commission. Um, next on our uh topic list is a discussion of the proposed changes to the shoreland zoning ordinance. And for that, I'm going to turn it over to our planning board chairperson and uh to Gosa.

she says she can't un Let's see. Okay, there we go. Sorry about that. Sorry about that. Um, my name is Anor Gross. I'm the chair of the planning board. Um, actually much of this work was done by John Simino, who is the previous chair, so I do want to give him credit for that. Um, so the state has a

shoreland zoning mandate. Basically, they write the rules and towns are required to adopt them and enforce them. And primarily that impacts areas within 250 feet of a a water resource that includes wetlands, rivers, rivers, streams, ponds, things like that. Uh back in 1994, uh the state initially put these in place. Durham was one of the 40 or so municipalities that did not follow the state law and did not adopt a compliant shoreland zoning. My understanding is they tried but it was never approved by the state. So our ordinance needs to be approved by the state as in compliance with their rules. So the board of environmental protection back then held a hearing and imposed shoreland zoning rules on the town. So Durham currently

has this sort of strange dual rules that apply to it. We have the towns zoning rules and and shoreland rules that apply in those areas. And then we have the states and everybody is required to follow both. So the planning board, if you come before the planning board, you're required to follow, we're required to apply both the code officer, the selectman, the ZBA, all of them. The problem is that it's now in two different places and it's not easy for any of us to understand. It's not easy for um homeowners to understand what applies to their their property and also because the town has not adopted shoreland zoning, we are limited in some of the things that we can do. Um including the example I gave the last time was the giant asphalt pile on 136 is currently in one of our resource protection zones. Um but because we have not we do not have a formal adopted shorland zoning approved by the state it

limits our ability to enforce things like that. So last year the planning board worked with George our planner and we actually hired an outside consultant Mike Morse. Mike used to be the shoreland zoning guy for southern Maine with D and now he's doing consulting on his own. Um, and we worked on trying to

bring our shoreland zoning ordinance into compliance with the state and get it approved by the state so that we would have one set of rules in our ordinance easily accessible in compliance with the state rules. And so George and Mike helped us do that. We held a couple public hearings. Um, we held numerous meetings on this, several meetings on this, workshops on this, trying to get this done and get this right. The state has given us a tenative thumbs up on this that if it passes, we will be in compliance with the state rules and their piece of the the regulations on us will go away and we will just have the town rules. So, we'll have one set of rules to enforce. um and uh a brief overview of the

changes. There are a few definitional changes. Um but I think the one that most folks are paying attention to, let me see. Uh Ruth, can you let me share my screen please so I can put up that map. um Oh, there we go. Yeah,

thank you. Uh, a few new areas. We have six new areas that will be put into resource protection or um limited residential. So, that means they'll have a few extra restrictions than what they currently have. The green that you see is our existing ordinance, our existing Durham shoreland zone. Um, and then these pieces outlined in red are the new areas that will be um added to the resource

protection or the limited residential and whichever zone they're in um dictates the the amount of the restrictions on them. These areas were identified by D um as requiring to go into our shoreland zone and under our shoreland zoning regulations. There's no way around that. They were also confirmed by Mike Morse. Uh there was a question whether the town should spend some money and take some time basically surveying the entire town and figuring out which really is um in the shoreline zone and which isn't. I will tell you that would require hiring probably a wetlands scientist and a surveyor. Uh would cost the town tens of thousands of dollars if not hundreds. And no other town does that. No other town in the state has done that because it's it's not um there's there's little benefit to

it. So what happens is if someone in the resource protection zone or the limited residential zone comes in and they say, "Hey, you know, that's that's really just a big hay field. There's no wetland there or the wetland is more than 250 ft from um from what we want to do. that person now and after uh this ordinance

passes, if it passes, um it will not change. Uh they would hire a surveyor or a wetland scientist to come back and confirm for us, the planning board or the code officer or whomever that um it is not in fact a protected resource. And again, that won't change between now and if this ordinance is adopted because we are currently required to follow the state rule. So again, the benefits and why we're doing this now is to come into compliance to have one set of rules so that everybody is aware and it's much easier to apply and also so that um we're in compliance with the state rules which allows us a little more flexibility enforcing our shoreland ordinance. Um, George or other members

of the planning board that are here, did you want to add anything before we take public comment on this? you really accurately characterized the history and the the basis for doing this from a policy standpoint just from some of the technical aspects. Um last uh

December the town adopted the zone Shorland zoning framework that meets the D guidelines. D reviewed that and the current set of amendments beyond the map changes that you talked about uh pretty much do a lot of fine-tuning of some language and regulations. Uh so it's important to just understand that uh and and the other thing is that the once you get your ordinances into full compliance, there are parts of shore of Durham shoreland zoning regulations that are far more restrictive than the states and there's a few areas that are noted on that map where it's less less restrictive than the state and the planning board is currently engaging in the process of working with Mike Morris uh to look at, you know, what parts of of of your zoning are can be uh made less restrictive and which parts need to be as restrictive as the state requires. So, I think it's important to for everybody to understand this is a

process of trying to get your ordinances not just in full compliance, but to really be effectively regulating the land with the least restrictive means you can use to to meet the state law requirements and protect the environmental qualities that are in your town. So, I just wanted to help people understand beyond those policy implications and the legal implications, there are some practical uh uh parts of this. And the other thing is that the comprehensive plan that was adopted in uh 20 uh 2018 2019 made this recommendation. So the planning board is following the recommendations of the comprehensive plan. There was a full public hearing. That town meeting had a unanimous vote to adopt the the new comprehensive plan. So it's I think it's also important for people to understand this is part of the direction that's been given by the voters.

you want to take public comment, Kevin, I don't know if you want to run that or you want me to run that. Um I I'm I'm happy to, but really uh Ruth and Tammy are kind of running it because they they're going to tell us who was first. I think I think Heather Roy had her hand up first. So, Ruth or Tammy will have to I don't know if they have to do anything to unmute her mic or whatever, but

Okay. So, this is Ruth. Um, all right. So, Heather, I'm gonna allow you to talk. I also have a resident here at the town office that would like to speak at some point as well. So, go ahead, Heather. Oh, okay. Thank you. I'm Heather Roy. I live on Hollow Road and um I think Ann might have to answer this question, but um I know that we've added some areas and I was curious if we removed some. I was looking at the map and there's a there's a specific property that I was looking at that I feel like it's been removed from and I'm wondering if it if that did in fact happen. If there were properties that were removed, since they were on the old map, would they still be required to have delineations done or would the new map govern?

So, I'm actually going to let George answer that one because I don't think we removed any areas yet. That's sort of phase two of our um project is looking at which areas are overregulated as compared to the state. But George, let me George, I'll let you jump in there.

Yeah, I would have to look at the map and I've done that with a few of the land owners, including I think the gentleman at the town hall that wants to speak. Um, so I I can if I know the property and I can look at the research that Mike Morris produced and as well as the state map. So there there was to my knowledge there's been no change to remove some areas from resource protection. uh the you've added the required um 250 ft around those large non-forested wetlands. That's one of the probably the most contentious issue you've got involved, but to my knowledge, no no properties have been removed from shoreland zoning as part of this process. And I could look at the map to see what particular Heather's talking about.

Okay. Thank you, Ruth. Who's next? right as if you were talking to me. Okay. Here's one of the things I've noticed. Ruth, we can't hear Mr. Bowie very well. The map that you that I received. Okay. And you got an area right in the middle here. uh probably wetland three and floor uh flood plan number two. Okay,

that's red, blue, and all that all that kind of thing. I'd say that's probably one of the most restrictive areas there is. Okay, you got about six houses in that area sitting underneath that. But the thing I noticed the most was it's on

the west side of Boyh Hill Road instead of on the east side of Boy Hill Road. That's what it's called on the east side road. There's nothing on the west side except for a pond at at Jane Rice's place. And so I was curious of how it all ends right at the road just suck like that. And and I'm saying, "Oh jeez, there's there's a big swamp right on the other side of the road, right across the road, and that's not listed." So, I'm I'm curious if maybe somebody got confused or the memory had a gap in memory and uh just put it in the wrong place.

in the middle? Yep. That's the one. Now, if you go to the other side of the road, other side of Boyh Hill Road, that's where your swamp is. like that. We have we have I've had my land surveyed by uh with a uh Androsken uh agriculture thing

there and all that years ago. No water, no problem, all good. had to have it surveyed again to build my house there and no problem. And now all of a sudden I find myself if I'm not in the red zone, I'm right on the some of it's in the red zone. And all I'm saying is if somebody

would take a drive up Boyill Road, stop right there where the where this thing is and take a serious look. Serious look. You'll see there's no water on the west side and the swamp is on the east side and that's where the brook goes eventually comes into a brook and come goes down towards the Androskagan is over there. And for the life of me I just said how in heck did we come up with that? So if you're flying over and somebody got confused and said oh it has to be oh that's where that was. Well it's it's not and that's

all I'm saying. And I've I have do have a puddle by the entrance of my driveway that's there. Okay. It's because I'm too lazy to put a lower the culpit. It's come up and I'm too lazy to lower it. But I can't do that in a hurry. But it's just one of these things that it's just I'm looking at this. Somebody somebody got a gap in memory or something because the swamp isn't there. That's all.

those maps that Mike did for us that you could share? I I don't have them immediately available. uh move on if I don't know if Mr. Buoie has other additional comments, but um what I can do is while you maybe take comments from the next speaker, I can pull up that map that Mike Morris did in detail just in short response. Um I talked to Mike Morris specifically about that situation and I know there's another property owner that's going to speak probably about this concern too. That area to the west of Buoie Hill Road is all farmland and um and under DP

Shorland zoning wetland criteria, they're what they're known as wet meadows. And if you look at air photos, um just get on Google Earth and look right in, you can see these dark lines go all the way across those fields. And those are drainage ditches that were put in probably more than a century ago to drain the swamp that was there. And so the the soils are still there, the water's still there, it's being actively farmed, they can do that in full compliance with the D and Federal Army Corps regulations. Um, and but if they go to develop it, whether it's a subdivision or other any type of residential commercial development, uh, then they've got to the federal law requires that those wet meadows, farm farmlands that are technically wetland, uh, soils and and hydraology, they've got to meet the Army Corps uh, regulations which are enforced by the DP and state law has imposed it on the town. Now, as far as the area on the

east side, northeast side of Buoie Hill Road, that is still all uh swamp, as Mr. Buoie indicated. And uh the Shorland zoning, if you look closely at that map, does actually extend across the road to that area. Uh that's part of the limited residential district periphery of that large uh forested, excuse me, the wet meadows of the farm fields. And so he's not quite accurate in terms of saying that it doesn't extend to the other side. It actually does based on my recollection. So what I'll do is, as I said, I'll pull up Mike Morse's map which kind of zooms in on that area. U but I think he it's important for everybody to understand that according to in my head Mike Morse looked specifically at that and I did as well that is technically even though it doesn't seem like it. It's all farmland and the between those drainage areas it's I'm sure it's it's dry but uh the

reason is because it's being drained and and D is not going to allow that to uh to not be regulated uh per if it's drained it's not wet but I mean the water the water comes off the hill water comes off that hill and that's why the drainage ditches are there okay and so When it comes off the hill, it could stay there for a day, maybe a day and a half.

Mr. Boy, we we were having trouble understanding what you're saying. Okay, there we go. Water comes off in the rice property down the hill and that's why the ditches were originally put in there cuz I was around when those ditches were put in. And it's because the water comes up the hill, runs across a field into the ditch over in Puritan's property, and that's been drained off. That ditch was put in by my uncle Arthura. And that was goes over to the little brook that goes into the half a pasture, what we call a half a pasture, and down into the runaround pond. And it just seems to be this this land, you know, has been well, it's been farmed for probably 200 years. I in my family alone, we've had it for about a century. And all of a sudden, I just don't like the idea that I might not be able to do anything I want with it. And I'm probably being taxed right up at the right up right up at the top. And if my

land's going to be devalued because I can't sell it for to somebody comes along and said, "Oh, well, yeah, you can. It's nice land, but you can't you can't do anything with it other than farm on it." then then I've got to something's got to happen here. I'm I can't take a hit like that. I'm just a I'm the only fixed income and I'm just a poor old poor old country boy. But I I I'll tell you that's we just can't I I looked at this

and studied that map and studied it and studied it and studied it and it don't show that full swamp on the side of the road. Well, I mean, yeah, it might go to the ditch on the other side of the road. that red line does. But that's a pretty substantial swamp if you go over there hunting in it. You want to come up here with the don't go in there with the waiters on. And I'm I'm sitting back saying, why is it on this side of the hill and on this side of the road and you got a big hill? You got the rice complex over there on that hill and you

know, you got uh two acres isn't going to handle the rice thing because the barn is probably five acres away. And so I just I I'm having a hard time understanding that. Maybe I was just thinking in the back of my mind, maybe somebody got confused there. Just put that thing on the wrong side of the road. That's all I'm saying. And if if a man if you have a an area that has water

that runs down onto it, okay, and if you ditch it, okay, and the water doesn't stay there right now, I'll tell you what, it' be hard ground to plow because it it's it's like a like cement. And I just don't feel it. I just don't feel it's right. I think I think maybe somebody someplace either the state or the flyby guys that took the pitches and all this kind of thing maybe just got confused. That's what I'm saying.

Uh Neil's next. on his mic or whatever. I I did It's not working. Oh, there you go. Neil, we can hear that. Okay. So, ju just a quick question. What what is it that the the town wants to do with the reclaim area that I I guess is already against state law and and why can't you do something about it now?

I don't think the town wants to do anything about it. But my point is is that if it chose to, it's limited in what it can do because we're not in compliance with state shoreland. But so you don't have the authority to enforce state laws now. There are there are limitations on what a municipality can on actions a municipality can take against a the state in a resource protection zone if you do not have a state approved shoreland zoning plan

but at the moment you don't want to do anything with that reclaim storage that's fine as far as you guys are concerned I'm not sure that's an accurate characterization I mean we have had conversations with the state um early on when it was first we were like cuz they actually didn't do a very good job of informing us about you know what this was and why it was there and the explanation that we're getting from the state is that um that is land that they

own which is true and that they they claim they are within compliance of of environmental uh state environmental um regulations. um the DOT provided a letter where the de the D is backing them up on that. So short of a uh court action in which as Ann has pointed out we don't have much of a leg to stand on because we don't have a shoreland zoning ordinance in compliance with state. Um we there's

really not much we can do. I mean, other than uh what we've already done and had conversations with them about having them be um more forthcoming with us in the future about uh similar efforts. Um they said this was a um and what we were told a temporary arrangement for the work that was being done on State Route 9. Um and that it wasn't like any sort of a permanent staging area uh for materials. Okay. I just wanted clarification. Thank you.

Yep. Ann and Ann, if you've if you know I know Ann's pretty close to this issue, literally. Um so if if you've if you've got other information you want to add in or or if I misspoke on something, then please jump in. No, I No, I I think you summarized where we are on that one.

like to know, sorry, if you could keep the maps up. Um, and then I have a question here. It says, are there any grandfathered stipulations and will there be if not now? so, and it's a it's a little complicated because we have this dual layer protection or dual layer dual layer of

um requirements on us. So, this already exists. These restrictions already exist because the state says they exist. we are only incorporating them into our ordinance. So we could not say as a town we could not say all right this piece is lawfully non-conforming or or grandfathered is the the colloquial term um because the state says it already is restricted it already is regulated so Mr. always spoke in his um you know his

field already is restricted on what can be done or at least the process that needs to be gone through before he can do anything on it and same thing with the Rice family that's offered comment as well. Those restrictions already exist at the state level so we could not grandfather those areas in under our ordinance um because those restrictions already exist. I don't know if that makes sense and George, I don't know if you have anything to add on that one.

Well, the other thing is that uh grandfathering nonconforming only applies to existing development. So, it would not apply to if you want to build additional buildings or develop additional lots, you can't be grandfathered uh for new development. You can only be grandfathered for things that exist. And actually that's a and maybe I completely missed the point of the question. So the buildings and the houses and everything that's already there can stay and there are actually some provisions in both state law and our ordinance where there can be limited expansion of them as well. And that's the extent of the grandfathering that exists in those areas and will continue to exist. So it's not like anybody's tearing down their barns or can't use their barns or houses or anything like that. So that thank you George for helping on that one.

are attending and I have 22 attendees and nine panelists. So 31 people here. was going to say, do we have any other um comments or questions or people that want to speak on the shoreland zoning issue? I don't see any hands.

Tom is raising his hand. Okay. I just I in the in the conversations I've heard, I thought this is this is why we need to have this like at a town meeting because people might see how this article is written in the in the for the vote and it may listen. They may say, "Oh, it's no problem. Sure." But in in a town meeting, people would go, "Oh, oh, oh, wait a minute now. This isn't what we we wanted." And so, this is something I think should get a town of of town meeting type of thing. And I just don't see why we're going hellbent for election and this era of this COVID

disease. and and and you know, if you can't have a town meeting, I don't know how in hell you plan on moving these product the these articles through and I think it's it's just a personally it feels very sneaky to me and I don't think it's right. I think if this was handled at a town meeting, I think there would be some corrections made in a hurry. Thank you.

topic? I don't see any. close the public hearing uh on the shoreland zoning portion. Okay. So, now we'll open the public hearing on the town manager proposal. And I'm going to go through the um the same presentation that I did last time.

He doesn't have his hand up. Yeah, that's he's here, but All right. Was there something? Oh, sorry. No, I I forgot to mute myself. We were talking about All right. Um Okay. Share my screen. let's see. So, we're going to go through a presentation on um the reasoning behind the board's proposal um

to ask the town if they want to uh move to a town manager, select board, town meeting form of government from a select board, town meeting form of government and hire a town manager. So, we'll talk a little bit about the current state of our government structure. um what um the benefits of a town manager would be. Uh some information on cost estimates, uh what the transition timeline would look like, uh and the search and selection process and what that would look like. Um what would change, what people would see that's different and what would not change. Uh and then a summary of the roles in town uh if we had a town manager. And then um there's a couple of organizational charts showing current and what it would look like um with a town manager.

but I am going to just read this one. So it's becoming increasingly difficult for a part-time elected officials to effectively manage town government operations and staff. 85% of Maine communities with populations over 3,500 have a town manager. uh evidence of the need for professional management of town resources. So this presentation explores the option of hiring a town manager in Durham to manage operations and staff across all town departments. Information regarding the reasons for hiring a town manager, cost estimates, the selection process, what would change and what would not is introduced here. Some may wonder about the difference between a town administrator and a town manager. The essential difference is that the town administrator is only responsible for town office staff and the administrative budget. A town manager, on the other hand, will have executive responsibility and accountability for all town employees

and operations. This requires a more advanced skill set and a greater level of experience. Given the changes in Durham over the past several years, we have simply outgrown the town administrator model and need the skills and experience of a town manager.

current state of our uh structure, town government structure in Durham. You know, we have several positions and an entire public works department that didn't exist several years ago. So we now have 10 full-time employees versus four in 2014. And in that time, the organizational structure of the town staff has really not changed in response uh to this growth. All of the department heads report to the board of selectmen as a group. And this is something that people may not be aware of is that individual selectmen. We really have no none of us have any power or authority as an individual. It's only as a board. So any you know discussions with a department head of any sort of you know performance issue or really anything uh it it only means

anything if it's uh a meeting with the entire board and that only happens you know generally twice a month. So there's not a lot of um supervisory um activity happening with department heads. And that's kind of the next point is there is no direct supervisor for department heads that you know provides that day-to-day support and coaching and feedback and guidance and just helping helping them be as effective as they can be in their job. And when we say department heads, we're the positions we're talking about are, you know, the fire chief, the public works commissioner, the code enforcement officer, the town planner, which is a part-time position, and the uh town administrator. Another point is that the select board, you know, members typically don't have the type of experience or expertise um that you really need to effectively manage a town in in areas like public administration, municipal government

operations, state and federal regulations or human resource management. And the concern of the board is that the potential cost to the town, especially for a mistake in a human resources issue, um could represent a significant cost to the town uh if a mistake was made. And then finally, you know, there's no single role that has crossf functional responsibility and accountability for the budget and operations as a whole. there are, you know, several department silos, uh, all kind of reporting into a,

uh, very part-time, uh, board of selectmen in that supervisory role. uh, really fall into three buckets. Uh the first one being human resource management and having somebody there as we said to provide that daily leadership supervision, you know, coaching and counseling and uh helping, you know, uh

find resources to answer questions and and basically have help those department heads be able to do uh be more effective in their own jobs. Um there's it also provides continuity of leadership you know as membership of the select board changes. So we have elections every year and so right now all the department heads essentially you know if there's turnover in the select board um have a different boss if you will like coming in every year and you know as we know different bosses have you know different priorities and different points of view and different whatever but um so a town manager provides a little bit of continuity as select board membership changes. And then you know really importantly is a town manager you know can ensure that you know employment issues are handled properly and in accordance with you know state and federal laws. Town budget management would be the second big bucket and we've mentioned

this already as well. You town manager has a townwide budget focus across all departments. You know not just you know for a single department the way a department head does. So that enables them to, you know, prioritize in a given year, you know, one area of the budget versus another depending upon what the town's needs are at that particular time. Um, they also provide day-to-day oversight of town expenditures again across departments. And then we'd also be looking for expertise in, you know, the long-term planning and management of capital expenditures. The third bucket is uh maybe somewhat of the softer skills if you will of of a town manager and that's that strategic guidance and vision and you know someone who can identify trends and opportunities and you know and threats and concerns as well that the town needs to be prepared uh to deal with and then come to the board uh and the town with

appropriate recommendations. um there's an opportunity to maximize um maximize our opportunities for grants and other funding sources. Uh certainly not promising or anything or saying this is the case, but anecdotally there there's many times when the additional grants that town manager is is aware of and goes for oftentimes makes up for the um additional expense of their of their salary. Um and then again, you know, being able to navigate that increasingly complex, you know, municipal, state, and federal regulatory environment

um town manager position would replace the town administrator position. So, there's no increase in the number of town employees. Um the difference in salary expense we're estimating to be about um $35,000. And that's the difference between a current town administrator salary uh in the in a 4-day week and an estimated town manager salary of 80,000 a year and a five day week. And we got we came to that $80,000 a year figure by, you know, surveying similar sized communities with similar um department, you know, government, municipal government structures. Um and that 80,000 a year is a pretty solid um pretty solid estimate. Um our total municipal budget uh per year right now is a little over $3.5 million. And so the extra 35,000 uh would be a little bit less than a 1% increase in that. We are um there would be a onetime expense of up to $8,000 for executive search services uh to assist with the

search and selection of a new town manager. And almost every community uses some sort of a search service when they're looking to fill uh a town manager position because obviously it's a very important position and you want to get it right. So this um this is the second of two questions dealing with the town manager issue. first asked the town if they want to make the change and then the second asked the town uh for the $8,000 um to pay for the search and that $8,000 uh would be coming out of undesated funds. Um and then it because the budget has already been passed for the year, that's the only way that we can uh pay for it is out of undesated funds because we we can't and wouldn't want to issue any sort of supplemental tax uh bill. So um and so that's the uh that's the direction there.

first article asking if the town wanted to adopt the town manager plan uh passed on November 3rd um and assuming the second article approving the funds for the search uh did as well. um we would uh immediately start the process uh upon that successful vote and then November of 2020 through March of 2021 would be the search interview and selection process and then the change to a town manager would uh officially become effective at the annual town meeting in 2021 presumably u in April.

process look like? So um if it's approved um the board intends to use the services of the main municipal association and the director of personnel services and labor relations. They have a lot of experience doing these searches. They do them for many many towns. Uh some towns uh hire a more

private services from private law firms. Uh those tend to be um quite a bit more expensive. Um and in reviewing the options and talking with MMA, we're pretty happy with um the way they explained how the process would work. And I'll I'll take you through that now. Um step one would be a needs assessment. So they would come in, they being the uh main municipal association meet with the board of selectman um and we get a consensus on what the priorities are regarding qualifications, skills, experience that we're looking for in a town manager. Um, and we would develop a candidate profile that kind of expresses that consensus. And this would be a portion of the process where the public would have the opportunity opportunity, excuse me, for a lot of input uh to express what um they are interested in seeing um in the role of town manager.

Step two is recruitment. So, uh MMA would discuss with the town any recruitment activities that we may want to undertake. And this would be things like, you know, any sort of advertising or paid search type activity. Uh but typically these jobs are uh advertised and looked for by people interested in these types of jobs in municipal industry type, you know, journals and publications. So it's it's not hard to get the word out that a town is looking for a town manager. Step three would be development of a rating document and this document would be you know based upon the priorities that we identified in that assessments meeting and it would be used um in review of any resumeumés submitted for the position.

MMA. you know, they'll conduct an initial review and utilize that ratings document and uh basically identify from the that first uh group of résumés, you know, who the strongest candidates appear to be and they will provide that information to the board. Um and they'll provide all of the résumés. Um they won't be holding any back. Even someone who isn't even remotely qualified, we'll get them all. uh but they will have kind of done some pre-screening based upon the criteria we've um identified.

Uh step five would be a resume review uh by the board of selectment. Um so they would uh they again MMA presents and and the resumes and assist the board with the review uh with the goal being to identify candidates who would be invited for a first round interview. Step six, uh, MMA will develop the interview structure and rating document for use during the interviews and will, uh, be present to help with the, uh, with the process as a non- voting coordinator. And this is a step in the process where, uh, the board would seek, um, citizen stakeholders to participate in that first round of interviews um, with potential candidates. Uh, step seven, uh, the background check. So any any candidates that are finalists that come out of that first round of interviews, um MMA would do the background check for references and employment history and report those results back to the board of selectmen. And then second interviews would be

scheduled and MMA would again be providing guidance uh regarding the content and the structure, advise on procedures and the actual hiring decision. uh they'll also provide any assistance concerning, you know, press relations or confidentiality or any other details of the selection process. And then finally, MMA uh will assist the board in preparing and delivering an offer. Like they kind of become the the middle person, if you will, between uh the board and the person being um the uh

receiving an offer. and any negotiation would go back and forth through uh the MMA acting as the conduit there um until we get to a uh a final agreement. town manager uh plan, what would change? Uh the biggest change that we've already talked about is that all town employees will report up through the town manager and not the board of selection. So they would have that dayto-day um supervision and boss if you will um versus the part-time um multi-person boss of the board of selectmen. The town manager would hire all personnel and um but department head positions would require select board approval. So, you know, if we need, you know, a new um you know, code enforcement officer or fire chief or or uh public works um director, uh the town manager would manage the search process and the interviews and and basically bring a recommended candidate to the board. Um but the board and the board would have to approve um that that hire.

uh the town manager will be responsible for town budget across all departments as we've discussed not um and really work on coordinating uh the budgets uh in accordance with overall town budget goals and constraints uh and then the select board would provide direction through the town manager not to individual department heads. So this is this is typically the biggest change for members of the select board and that you know we have to change our um style if

you will and you know so if I have an idea for for instance the fire chief you know rather than go to the fire chief directly and say hey I think you ought to be doing this or what do you think of that? um that I would need to have that conversation with the town manager and then the town manager has the conversation with um with the department head. So what would not change? Uh most things would not change. Um town meeting still held and conducted as usual. Uh citizens we still vote on all the same things that we vote on today. Um the board of selectmen exists as it does today. Um the board of selectman would still appoint members of committees and commissions again just like we do today. No change to budget committee or the or the budget pro uh budget committee process or the planning board uh board of appeals or other standing committees.

recapping some of the stuff um just presented. So again town meeting is essentially unchanged. uh legislative body is is how that's referred to in state law. Uh so it's the legislative function of adopting governmental policy. You know, any uh taxes raised or levied and money being appropriated or uh taking on debts of any sort. Um that all still has to be voted on um at town meeting just as as it is now. Board of selectman continues as the executive body in the in the role that we have now. We interpret policies of the town and choose course of action between town meetings. And the board of selectman has ultimate administrative responsibility, but it's administered solely through the town manager. And then the board of selectman is responsible um under state law for appointing and supervising the town manager. The town manager's role is essentially to execute the town approved government

and fiscal policies with guidance from the board of selectmen. and they have direct responsibility for and authority over all administrative functions. website. Uh but we a note that the recordings of the public hearings were available on the website and here's the link where you can find more information and people can use the contact us link um to to forward any questions or comments um via email. Um and then I'll skip down here in the appendex is a couple of organizational charts. This is the how it looks today. Um with you can see all the department heads basically reporting up through the board of selectmen. And then if we had a town manager, it basically adds that layer between the board of selectman and the department heads and and takes on that direct administrative authority uh and responsibility.

I'm going to stop that. open it up for uh questions or comments. So, we have one question in the chat. Will the search committee include town residents who are not elected officials? the I think and I can't remember exactly which step it is but the the first interview the first interview uh yes the non uh non-elected officials will be invited to participate uh in the interview process

and Heather has her hand up. Yep. Heather, go ahead. You're m I can't hear you, Heather. I think your mic needs to come on. Sorry, I did it. Oh, try it again. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Thanks, Heather Roy from Hollow Road. Um, I just want to thank all the residents that are here participating today to become informed voters. And, um, I've watched the presentation on the town manager, well, on everything twice. Um, and I still have all of the same questions. There are a few. Um, so hopefully I'll be able to get through them all. Um, my first question is the

sample ballot that's currently online, is that the ballot that we're using? Yes. Okay. And so on the original ballot that was part of the printed town meeting book um the that was prior to town meeting being cancelled. The budget committee did not recommend the funds for this issue. The new ballot shows that they have recommended the search funds and I'm wondering why that's changed.

Is there anybody from the budget committee attending this? Neil, do you want to do you want to address that or I don't know if Milt the budget committee chairman is on the list? I mean, I can I can tell you what I heard from them and then, you know, Neil is here and we can if he wants to address that. Um, I think they in in the first time around

I think they were um I think they were caught a little off guard by the question and weren't really sure what to do quite honestly. um second time around I think um and this will probably a good time to say just because they um approved

uh or voted uh make a recommendation for the funding of the search um and this will be same true with the funding of marijuana that we'll talk about a little bit later doesn't necessarily mean that they're advocating for uh town manager position. It doesn't mean they're not advocating for that. just means that if the town approves the town manager

position, then the feeling of the budget committee and the board of selectmen was that then if we're going to do it, we should do it right and approve the funds to do a proper search. And I I would invite Neil or if there's anybody else here from the budget committee to jump in and comment on that if they want to, but they can put their hand up if they want to comment on that. So, but I'm not seeing a hand, Heather. Oh, there's Neil's hand. Can we We'll come right back to you, Heather. We'll give Neil a chance to to uh from the budget committee to address your question. Can you turn Neil's mic on, please?

He should be able to do it. Okay, Neil, you unmute yourself, Neil, if you want to um add anything to that. I can only speak from my recollection and for myself. I think we felt that we needed a uh town meeting discussion on

the town manager before we voted to approve money and start the whole process. And that's my recollection on the first vote on that. The second vote was as as you said, Kevin. Okay. All right. So, we'll go we'll go Thank you, Neil. We'll go back to you, Heather. You said you had some additional questions.

again? No, she needs to unmute herself. Okay. Can you hear me? Yep. Thank you. Um, why is the salary increase not on the ballot? And if so, we're going to vote to approve it. We're going to vote for the funds to do the search. If it's approved, how will you fund the position if we're not voting on the salary?

So, um, we never we don't there isn't there aren't any salaries that the town votes on today. When we vote we vote on budgets, we vote on um categories, if you will. So, this would fall under the administrative budget. And this expense

um would be covered uh under uh current budget. And most of this expense would actually wouldn't start until after the first of the year, which is the new budget year. And so the the funds for that would support a uh the town manager position would be included in the normal administrative salary budget for the 2021 budget. Okay, thank you. Um, with regard to the town manager hiring process, you stated there would be quote a lot of public input at the last public hearing. Can you explain what that looks like, please?

So, I think in one of the I'm going to go back to the process side so I can get it right. But, so there's really two main uh steps where um public input would be part of it. And so there would be public, you know, you know, public open meetings um with representatives from MMA there. Step one in the needs assessment, that would be uh we'd be collecting information and thoughts and ideas on, you know, what people thought was important in a town manager and and what that role uh should look like for Durham. Uh so that's um the first uh

opportunity. And then really the second one is in step six, the actual interviews where uh citizens would be invited and I'm not sure exactly what that process would look like. It would probably be similar to other committees where we would ask people to fill out some sort of a you know questionnaire or you know application if you will stating you know why you want to be involved and the board would select you know you know a number of people to uh be on the interview panel and then those people would participate in the first round of interviews you know be able to you know ask questions of the applicants and participate like anybody else um and then also participate um in the u

narrowing of the applicant pool to the list of finalist. So those those would be the two areas where uh the public would have um area uh involvement in the process. Okay. So, I just want to clarify the first hearing you said that they would likely be appointments and the verbiage

on your presentation says may and today I'm hearing you say that there will. Is that clear that there will be appointed presidents? As far as I'm concerned, there will, but I'm, you know, ultimately, you know, that's a board decision. I can't imagine the board would not do that quite you know but that's why it's kind of but it's it's qualified with the may if you will because um the board actually has to vote to do that. Okay. Um, will the selectman be able to change their role the role of the town manager or which departments, budgets or employees it's responsible for for is the flowchart that you've designed set in stone as it's the presumption that residents are voting on? I think the way the way the town manager plan is articulated in statute is that

um that all those all those employees have to report to the town manager. Okay, thank you. I'm almost done. Will our ordinance reflect the changes um in our government? Like will you know how we have to do ordinance changes to increase the number of people that are on the historical commission? Will our ordinance will have to reflect these changes as well?

Yep. It it I don't I don't know if it's considered an ordinance, if you will, but it would definitely be, you know, the adoption uh of an article at town meeting that the town, you know, has adopted the state town manager plan. Um that would be like an official act. And so if we if down the road if the town decided it didn't want a town manager anymore, the town would have to vote to basically uh you know uh stop using

um the town manager plan and go to something else. either, you know, back to um select board uh town meeting with just a town administrator or, you know, who knows how many years down the road to a town council, you know, former government or something else. So, there would have to be another a town vote of some sort to um if it was approved at this point to do something other than a town manager.

Okay. And then my last question and then I have one comment is um because we aren't governed by a charter, is it possible for there to be a link posted on the website of the rules in which our town is governed by? You don't have to answer that now. I mean if you want to answer it

well I want there there is a link in the presentation to the the the state the town manager plan and what yeah I don't mean the town manager I mean in general overall I don't Ruth you can I don't know if if that exists it's essentially title 30A

um in the state statutes um but I don't know if there's any one single thing where you I can point you to that says these are the rules that the town is governed by. I mean I think it's title 3A in the main um revised statutes.

Okay. It's all in the title. Okay. Thank you. And then um my last comment is that people may think by my line of questioning I'm not in favor of town manager and I just want to make it clear that I absolutely am in favor of a town manager. And I'd also like to state publicly that I will definitely be appoint um filling out whatever is necessary to h to be appointed to the search committee. Um it's something that I'm interested in because I do want to make sure that the town gets this right. Thank you for your time.

Okay. Thank you. Okay. Uh we have a Rebecca Lazot. I'm going to allow her to talk. I have a super quick question and I probably misunderstood so I'm just going to say that right out of the gate. Um, if we're voting on the town manager without the salary component in the vote and we vote for initiating the search and the interviews and all those things and then at town meeting the budget for that line is not voted for. Wouldn't we

have wasted a lot of people's time? Um, no. because we we don't vote we don't vote on individual salaries or individual positions at town meeting. So at town meeting we vote for in this case it would be it would be under administrative and there's um and we vote on a total amount for administration and and let's for the sake of argument let's say it's like $300,000. It's somewhere in that neighborhood. I think um the town the vote is for the $300,000 and then it's up to, you know, the select board and and the department heads to uh spend that money as needed

to accomplish what the administration needs to accomplish. So money for an increase in salary uh for the position would be part of that larger chunk that we'd be voting on for administration. Um so the there's not there's not really an opportunity to not approve the s a salary if you will for a town manager on on town floor. somebody could um you know propose an amendment to reduce the total amount of the article by x amount of dollars. But even if that passed um what would happen is we would still have a town manager but we would have to less money somewhere else because we would still have to pay the town manager. Does that

that answer your question? Yeah. I just didn't want I just wanted to complete the circle and make sure we weren't spending a lot of time on something that could potentially not happen. Right. I too am in favor. Town manager.

Great. Thank you. Okay. Uh we have Michelle Richardson. Yes. Go ahead. Okay. Uh question and a comment. Um my question is um with the the current structure with all of the department heads reporting to um reporting to the board as a whole um obviously the day-to-day uh supervision that you mentioned is um difficult but also I was curious um are annual um uh performance

evaluations done by by the board as a whole uh for each of the department heads? Yes, they are. Okay. And I presume that that would also flow to the town manager if it were if we're in place. Town manager would be responsible for appraisals and performance management of department heads. Um the board would would do an annual appraisal for the town manager.

Perfect. Um yeah, I mean so so that was my question. My comment is is I am also uh in favor of this change. um you know just looking at the 150% increase in staff right in in six years and the addition of a whole new division um for public works and just just the the the

demands um I think it makes a lot of sense to have someone who's directly responsible for for managing all of those division heads as opposed to um as opposed to the board who as you mentioned Kevin can can change um and I think for even as the division heads I think it's probably um appealing to know that their boss isn't potentially up for election every, you know, every couple of years and changing constantly. So, I mean, obviously bosses can change too, but a little a little less frequently I think than than boards. Um, so I am 100% in favor of this. Um, I think that the cost is, you know, it's it's not it's not pennies, but um I think it's reasonable. I think there is some potential um for efficiencies when you have someone looking at the whole budget and not just the a division by division budget um and then the the grant opportunities as well. So I think this is um I think this is a good move for

Durham and I will be supporting it. Thanks. Great. Thank you. So, just so you know, it it takes a while for that unmute option to come up. Okay. Um uh uh so just just a point of clarification from what I've read in some MMA documents, the the board of selectmen have a tremendous amount of latitude and what they assign to responsibilities for a town manager and for a town administrator for that reason for for that for that matter. So I don't think there's any main statutes that assign all department heads or employees to work for or report to the town manager. And I I just I I'll just stop talking. But I think that's a pretty important issue to get clarified because you guys decide what what he does.

Yeah, I think certainly with the town administrator, you're you're absolutely right because the town administrator is not actually defined in state law. It's it's barely even mentioned. It's really that's the um that's a wild card, if you will. But I'm I mean I I'm 99% sure that

that town manager plan uh essentially says that you know town employees report to the town manager and um that and that's that's what the town manager plan is. So um I it well I think it's worth checking because I can remember specifically reading otherwise. So I'm not I'm not arguing. I just think you guys should check that out.

Yeah, understood. Thank you. Okay. Um Barb has a couple of comments, but um I'm going to Barb, I'm going to allow you to talk because um I don't I don't uh understand the first one. it on. Um, Barbara Schneider, I'm chair of the board of appeals and I live on uh Ruff Rider Road. I think that you would get far more support for this proposal if you considered adding screened residents at every stage of the selection process from looking at résumés to looking at the job description. Um I think

I think you have expertise in this town that goes beyond the capacity of the selectman and I think it would um be a good way to encourage more participation. So that's a comment. Um my second point is that I I guess structurally if the town approved the town manager plan but not the budget, you would just have to reallocate funds among all the various salaried people within that administrative line item. So it depended on the contracts you offered. It would depend upon you might have to furlow people, you might have to cut hours or anything, but you'd be bound to continue that form of government. My third comment is and I support the town manager position. I think that it's a stra I mean I can think of many times when um whether it's the codes enforcement officer some some uniformity of interpretation and ability to access municipal expertise on a day-to-day basis beyond the limited role of a

department head would really benefit the town. So really, this is this is a very skilled person. This is just this isn't going to be someone who just walks off the street to say, "Hey, I want to do this job." This is someone with some public policy and planning expertise, which I think as we grow, we need this desperately because it's a little bit disjointed. Um, and that's not to say that our town employees don't do an outstanding job. It's just the roles that they fill are

um burgeoning. And I'll shut off now. your to your comment about uh public participation at all steps, um I think that's, you know, that's entirely likely and possible. Again, I don't want to speak to the rest of the board. Um but it's it's definitely part of the discussion. The selection process as articulated in the presentation is you know how a kind of a typical process goes according to MMA. Um but we can certainly make adjustments to that and bring in um yeah non-elected people real

anywhere we want. So that that'll be a conversation that the board will have in terms of what that process will look like. So all right, anything else? So Heather Roy has written a comment. Uh it says regardless of the town plan statute and is it the intention of the board and the vote before the residents the approval of the structure you are presenting and then it says I wholeheartedly agree with Barbara's resident participation comment.

that. Okay. Uh it's under the Q&A. the vote before the residents the approval of the structure you are presenting? Um it's I if if you're referring to the organizational chart um then I think it is the intent of the board if if this answered your question I think it's the intent of the board to have all department heads report up through the town manager. So if that and that's what that chart represents. So, um I

hopefully that answers that question. Um so Kevin U Becky handed me um 30A parts of it. Um it says one part says the board of selectman shall deal with the administrative services solely through the town manager and shall not give orders to any subordinates of the manager either publicly or privately. Um, and then there's a section that talks about the town manager is responsible for appointing town officials, which would include department heads, right?

Unless otherwise provided by town ordinance um shall appoint, supervise, control all town officials whom the municipal officers are required by law to appoint except members of the boards, commissions, committees, and single assessors.

Right? So that that is the that's as I as I stated and that is the what's what's called the town manager plan. Um there there are other options in state law but they it and where you can do other things but that's only available if the town has a charter and has expressly um spelled out those things in the charter. And Durham is not a town that has a charter. So that doesn't apply to us. So what applies to us is just as Ruth said um the uh the town employees

um report up through the town manager. So if some and that question has come up a couple of times. So if somebody if there's if there's some reason somebody is thinking that there's a particular function that shouldn't report up through the town manager, I'd be curious to hear input on that. So

Okay. Uh, so Neil, your hands up. Is that still up from the last time? And then I see I went down. Um, Barb, your hands up again. a suggestion. I mean, isn't it necessary to potentially go through existing ordinances to see whether any um clerical changes or more substantive changes might need to be made if the and I'm thinking of or you know z um land

use ordinances or um anything to see if anything is made different by this form of government. Have we done that yet or is there a need to do that? I don't think there's a need to do that because anything in anything in ordinance um that is going to call like for any sort of change or approval is um is referred

to the um legislative body of the town which is always town meeting and that's not changing. So the the town manager other than personnel decisions and managing the budget within what has been approved at town meeting um can't make decisions on their own in terms of changing you know anything to do with an ordinance or or anything like that. They're essentially overseeing the implementation and execution of what has been approved um at town meeting and the direction that they're getting from the board of selectmen.

So any um thing that any place in an ordinance that mentions a power of a department head wouldn't have to be more subject to their supervisor. Well, I wouldn't think so because the department head supervisor today is the board of selectsmen and so they still they still have a supervisor today and tomorrow they would if this were approved would still have a supervisor but it would be um the town manager not the board of selectmen. But you could add a layer of additional

oversight to any department head for issuances of permits or and I mean I'm just curious do other towns kind of once they go from one form of government to the other add a little bit more oversight from that one key employee so that the burden on the legislative body is lessened. We need oversight from the town manager.

Yep. Um I guess well the town do you have an example because I'm not I'm not sure I'm following your know um a decision to to issue some kind of land use citation, right? It goes right to the codes enforcement officer with you could have that be reviewed by a town manager. you know, a code enforcement officer shall recommend enforcement actions to the town manager, you know, or or or all enforcement actions shall go to the selectman from the town manager. I'm just

I'm just once you've had that, you might want to consider um funneling things in a different way that that um that's I Okay, thank you. Now, now I'm following what you're getting at is I think anything like that, you know, could be possible, but it but it wouldn't be via a change or anything in the town manager plan. It would be via a change,

correct? Land use ordinance itself. So, so I think I think after, you know, if a town manager were hired and the um town wanted to explore putting something like that into land use ordinance, we could certainly do that. I mean I but I do think that in the process of doing this it's important for people to understand what the potential trajectory of this kind of form of government could look like. So you know we're it's a state that has many towns and it I would I'm guessing that other towns have adopted ordinances that change how certain

things move through the town governmental process. And I I just think it sounds like we're doing this very peacemeal when it might be even more comprehensive. So I think it's a good idea, but um you know it's it's interesting to me and I mean did this come up in our um comprehensive plan discussions for example changing to this form of government because that was a body that looked at a lot of different things.

Yeah, it definitely came up. Um, I can tell you it was part of discussions. I don't think I think and it's actually one of I believe it's one of the um to-dos, if you will, was was to have the town look at um uh explore a potential

move to town manager uh form of government. Um but I think one of the things and and we had a similar question about but a different topic at the last public hearing. Uh, one of the things we would look um for in this town manager position is for the person to come in and um look at everything with a fresh

set of eyes, you know, from how we structure town office staff to how we uh allocate, you know, our payroll hours to um how the processes as you were um use as an example from um from applicant to code enforcement officer. to speaking to appeals board, you know, to help us look at all of those things um with their level of experience and recommend some potential changes. So, um I I don't think it's peacemeal. I think it's I do think it's a it's an iterative process where uh step one is to you know

identify what we want the town manager to do and hire somebody and then have that person come in and over the course of several months or their first year um look at how we're doing things and then come back with some recommendations on maybe how we do things differently

and and Kevin I think that makes a lot of sense. I think what you're saying underscores why this should be a discussion of a town meeting because you're looking at big changes in the way that we do things and the potential for the future. And that very candid um acknowledgment that many things may change about the way business is conducted in the town needs to be a wholesome discussion at town meeting. Again, I'm supportive of the concept, but I think it's not as simple as just voting to reorganize staff. It's a different approach to governmental function that, you know, dis that I

mean, the trade-off of Yeah. So, you have a whole bunch of people vote, but they don't know what they're voting on. I don't think that's really all that great an idea. Well, I so I would just like to make a comment because a couple of you said I I don't agree that people don't know what they're voting on. I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that the only way we get an informed decision is if a very small group of people have a discussion um in a room and then that small group of people makes the decision. I think we've made a lot of efforts here to put a lot of information out. These hearings are recorded. people can uh watch them uh well before the vote takes place. There's lots of information out there and um personally I do not buy into the school of thought that the only way you get a good decision is if a small people a small group of people discuss it in person on town floor. I think you can

get just as good a decision, if not a better decision with by putting a lot of information out there, having the public hearings that people can go back and look at, uh, discuss amongst their neighbors and friends and whatever, you know, and have lots of different discussions, not just one discussion on town floor, um, and then go to the polls and have over 2,000 people vote instead of 150. So, um I I'm I guess you know we

have a disagreement on that, but um I think I don't think I don't think it's a given that we don't get as well informed a decision doing it this way versus uh an on the floor town meeting. Okay, can you hear me? Yes. Uh I have to say I'm Deb Larby from Hollowell Road. I'm a former selectman and I would like to say that the public input is very very important. We've used the government study committee um on several um key positions and changes to

the town and I have found that the people that are involved are very informed. they're very serious about their their research and sometimes it takes six months, sometimes it takes a year, but it gives um a full accounting of what we're stepping into. Um and then they report back to the select men and there's public hearings and then it goes to town meeting with informed.

I feel the way we're doing it right now is like coming in in the back door because it's co we're on Zoom. A lot of people don't have Zoom or know how to participate in Zoom and I just think the the face-toface with the uh town people is is very very important and and the studies that we've done before have been very very successful because we have gotten them voted in at town meeting and it's because we did our homework and I know in the future that we are probably going to need a town manager the town is growing, things are changing, but I think right now with this COVID situation that we have, it's just best for the select men to keep doing business as they are, which has done very well, and leave this town meeting uh uh town manager uh decision to a time when we can really um work with the people. I It's sad to see that

So many people are missing this public hearing. It's so informative, but people just don't have the access. And I would like I have one more question. Have you this secret ballot was that planned as a special select men uh special town meeting? Technically, technically it is a special town meeting um to put any uh because you have to have a town meeting to put any sort of of um question before the

legislative body of the town, which is a town meeting, but a town meeting can happen in um different forms. There's the in-person on the floor that is the more traditional approach, but you can also have a what this is a is a referendum style uh town meeting. And it's a special town meeting because it's not the annual town meeting where we elect officials.

Okay. And so posting for the public so that they know that this secret ballot is going on. Besides the postcards that came in the mail um was a a warrant posted at at the public places. I know usually we use the the Durham getandgo and perhaps the town office to um state this special town meeting. Was that done as well as postcards?

Ruth or Becky, you want to speak to that? There is a warrant which was signed by the town uh officials, the selectman. Sorry. Um and it needs to be posted 7 to 10 days prior to the vote. So yes, it will be posted. I don't believe it is posted at this moment although we do have uh sample ballots available here and of course the ballots will be going out as well.

Okay. And is there any other um place that you have put this um say the lost and son or times record have you know some kind of input that way been put out there that kind of catches the town's people eye so that so that this whoever comes to this special um ballot will kind of have an idea of what's going on. There is a public hearing notices put in in uh the Sun Journal. Um they go in the legal section. I don't know how how many people look at the legal session, but that's uh legally what we were required to do. In addition, we did send out the postcards

and there was uh there was an article I yesterday or the day before, I believe, in the Times record. Um, I'm not sure if, you know, if we sent them anything or they just it's it sounded like that they heard about this somehow and then sounds like they went to the last public hearing and watched it um because all the quotes that they used came out of that um public hearing. But um it typically when you see something like that in you know Times record it it oftenimes gets picked up by um other area newspapers as well.

Okay. Because I just think it's very very important to um have an informed vote by the town's people. Not that they're just going in and seeing this ballot for Durham and just going check check and then once it's voted in they're going to come back and say what did I vote for? Then they're going to come to the select men. They're going to be very upset. And I I just think the

education of it is is like I said important. And I think it should wait for for a town meeting. I I really do. I I hate special town meetings. I always have because it doesn't it's not like your annual meeting. And I thank you for your time and all that you got that the select men have done. Thank you.

unmute me. I couldn't unmute myself. Um, okay. Uh so uh Michelle Richardson, Patriot Way, I had one quick question and another comment as always. Uh my question was when Ruth read the section from uh the statute 3A. Um she said the

town manager is responsible for hiring um all staff including division unless there's an ordinance otherwise. So, um, do we have that ordinance otherwise that says that the the division heads would be then, um, officially approved by the board or is that a change we'd have to make?

Um, I don't know if that says by ordinance. Um, what what that section is in 3A as well that that the uh uh department heads need to be approved by the select board. That that's in there as part of that. Oh, okay. ordinance which spells anything out like that.

Perfect. So, as long as it's in there, that's that's what I wanted to hear. Um, and then just my two cents for what it's worth. probably less than two cents. But um I think you know while I am a huge uh fan of annual town meeting and I go every year, I am one of roughly 150 people that go every year. And I do think that you get a better sense and pulse of the community which has, you know, 3,500 um uh residents, obviously not all voting age, but 3,500 people uh on a on an election. Um, I certainly can understand the the rationale of liking the ability to hash it out and ask questions and this sort of thing, but um, you know, I think the board has done a good job of uh, you know, trying to communicate the information, trying to provide resources for folks. Um, and you know, I I know that members of our board will answer questions if they get, you know, emails. If they get emails, if somebody isn't clear on they couldn't

figure out Zoom or they, you know, just need to know something, you know, we're a resilient group. We we're resourceful and we'll ask find a way to ask our questions and get them answered in advance of um of election day. So, I think you'll get a better sense of the full community as opposed to the 150 people that, you know, show up to annual meeting. I understand it's sometimes hard to get people there on a Saturday, child care, work issues, etc. So, I actually think this is um um a a better way to get something like this done. Um you know, as long as you're informing people, and I think you guys have done a good job at that. So, I appreciate the efforts. Thanks.

Okay, thanks. Um, I think that Barbara did a much better job articulating my question about ordinance changes. Um, I do feel that in aside from the reporting of the employees and and how that structure works, I think our ordinance also has um a structure laid out in it for residents that have issues

being brought before the selectman. So in addition to the areas where um town employees roles may change and who they report to, I think there are also areas where the way that residents handle things would need to be addressed. And so I can see both sides of this. I can I completely agree with Michelle and the fact and and also the board that this is an opportunity for more residents to take part having it coincide with the special um having the special meeting coincide with the election. I'm a big um advocate for as many people as possible. I wonder if the board would consider a type of compromise where we approve it because I

think in some senses we're putting the cart we're putting the horse before the cart. we we need the approval to know if this is the direction the town wants to go in before we would spend money to do the search and whatnot, but I also feel like going back to what Barbara was saying, there are fundamental differences that have to take place in order for this to work well. And I I agree with the board in their thought to have someone new come in and look at this with a fresh set of eyes. I wonder if the board would consider a situation like we have with George where he's come in as a consultant and looked at our land use issues and uh directed the uh

planning board if in this case because I know like Kevin I know the study that you did when we were like the RSU debate and and when we had the public works department and there were all these comparative studies and numbers and data that we could look at to make a decision based on actual data versus just saying

the reason that we need this is because the board thinks we need this. Um, so anyway, I'm just wondering if the board would maybe consider bringing a consultant in after the approval has taken place before we take that next step, which again I'm completely in favor of. I just feel like the residents are asking I've I've heard nearly every single person in both public hearings comment that they just want more concrete information to make this decision on. Okay, that's it. I'm done. I'm done. I'm out. Bye.

All right. Thank you, Heather. Um, Barb. Hi. I didn't have my hand up again. I'm fine. Okay. All right. Chief Moore, Chief. Okay. Just in relation to to what Heather had just commented on, uh just looking at it from a perspective of more than just the board's opinion that this is a this is a good idea or benefit from the town. Um being a town resident and and the fire chief, this does directly impact my position and I think it's an excellent idea. Uh because while the board does a terrific job, um they are a they are a voluntary part-time position truthfully. Um, and they, as Kevin has pointed out, they have no authority on their own individually. A quorum is required. Uh, it takes time to get that done and they do a good job of answering the questions that I need um, and providing support. Uh but overall looking at things moving forward uh in the town, having someone here on a day-to-day

basis that has more experience than they do, more experience than I do in personnel management, budgetary matters, uh this is a really important thing for the town to consider uh taking a look at now. And I think I think going through a a consulting process is really just going to spend more money and more time telling us what we already know which is we are at that stage of growth in the town and would benefit from it. uh specifically as an example uh I work very well with the code enforcement officer with the with the public works director but we also operate in our own little bubbles too and this is especially evident when the budget time comes along where I I put together a budget that I feel appropriately reflects what my department needs for the year but it's completely absent of

the idea of what another department may need what the town overall may be looking at and having someone in that position uh to be able to provide that guidance of okay, I understand this is what your budget looks like and what you think you may need, but this is the overall impact to the town regarding your interaction with public works, with code enforcement, with administration. Um, and having someone in that role on a day-to-day basis, um, is is certainly going to be a benefit for the town that I think people are are maybe not considering necessarily if they're just looking at it from the perspective of we don't need to spend the money on this right now. Uh, because in the long run, it will it will save us.

Thank you. Thank you, Chief. Wait, there's another question and answer. Heather Roy, my consultant comment was to help make ordinance changes necessary to reflect the town's approval of a town manager before actually hiring a town manager versus putting the cart before the horse.

again. Go ahead, Deb. go. Okay. How am I am I unmuted now? Yep, you're good. We can hear you. I would I would just like uh Deb Larby Hollowell Road if this town manager uh position does go through at at town meeting. I would I would just like to uh suggest slashrecommend that perhaps the um select men along maybe with MMA or another consultant and a government study committee um made up of our uh towns people all work together to get the rest of this um put together. And I do wish there was some way we could disclose what it's going to cost for a town manager if we pass it. And that's my final comment. Thank you.

Okay. topic? Oh, looks like we got Rebecca. Yeah, I want to piggyback on that. I do think it's important that they if we can at all disclose cost here, I think that that is important. I think especially in this COVID time, any sort of proposed tax increase is going to be looked at negatively. And if we can disclose the

estimated $35,000 increase in the overall budget, I think that that's super important. I think that this will probably get a lot of negative feedback without that component. Um, so that's just my two my two cents. So I I So in my mind, we have disclosed I mean you just quoted it back to me yourself. You know, it's we're looking so I'm I'm disclosed in what way? Am I

because I feel like I'm missing something. wants to answer that or the actual ballot, you know, when we're pen to paper approving this, you know, the estimated increase in budget being actually on that question. Yeah. Well, um it's it's it's not um and it it typically wouldn't be um for any question uh like that, but the ballots are printed and whatever. So, that's that's the importance of information like this. But then when it does come around to budget time next year to approve the funding, uh typically what we do is um if there are significant changes in an article like you know whether it's an increase or a decrease or even even if the net increase isn't much but within it there are shifts typically what we'll do is we'll say that okay this line is is more this year because of this reason or this line is less because of you know this reason so that people kind of understand and have some transparency into like why the

bigger number they're voting on is the way it is. So that would certainly be part of the budget process next year. But um putting like the the this would cost estimate another $35,000 actually on the ballot that's that's not possible at this point.

Yeah. Um, I I'm concerned, Kevin. I I understand that, you know, it's just an argument about democracy, right? Is having a vote where anyone can show up and you'll get 6,000 people or you'll get the 2,000 registered voters versus the hundred people at town meeting. My my concern is that I don't think you've set this up for passage. And that's what's disappointing to some degree. I mean, I know you guys have made valiant efforts to let people have

input, but let's face it, it's always the same numbers of people who provide input. And given given what Deb alluded to, the historical approach this town has taken by having broader study commissions when we've looked at major issues. I I think deviating from that is not setting this up for success. So, I I hope that it succeeds in a vote, but I don't think it's gonna because people will feel as if they're they've been disenfranchised from the process whether they attended or not. That's that's just my two cents.

Okay. Thank you. hand because I'm a co-host. This is Yeah, go ahead, Ann. Sorry. Um, I just want to address a couple things that I I heard. Um, one is that we need to look at the ordinances first and I just did a quick search through our land use ordinance and the board of selectment is referred to 25 times in that ordinance. Um, most of which that function would not change. it's relating to appointing um committee members and things like that and that will always remain with the board of selectmen regardless of whether we have a town manager. The other area is with respect to land use enforcement actions. The selectmen are authorized to initiate them and they're also authorized to settle them through consent agreements. And that is town litigation. We do not want that with a city a town manager at this point. We want that to stay with the board of selectmen, you know, and I've I've heard the the

the the comments that we need a study and we need this and we need that and we need to fix the ordinances first. And I agree with Chief Moore. I think that's just delaying the inevitable and frankly spending more money on the inevitable. Um, I mean, how many towns people have come to the board of selectmen with a concern about the way the I don't mean to pick on you, chief, but the chief is doing his job or George is doing his job or a code enforcement officer or public works or my street's not plowed on time, right? And the selectmen have to handle that as a personnel issue. And it's very challenging, as Chief Moore alluded to, to do that as a board. And folks will have a boss and they will be held accountable, but they will also be coached and they will be brought together to work together and they will have someone to report to. They will have someone to um to go to with questions, which is also a valuable

resource to them. And I don't think we need a study to tell us that. Um I also completely agree with Michelle. I've lived here for I don't know 20 years at this point. I've been to one town meeting and I'm a very informed voter and I'm a very informed citizen and I choose to make my voice heard when I think it's necessary, but I don't have three hours to spend on a Saturday um at a town meeting debating things, but I will vote and I will vote informed. And I think for people to say that those voting aren't informed is um not giving them enough credit. So I think and I think the selectman has have gone above and beyond in this situation sending a postcard to every single resident um and have tried and the

information's out there. I mean we just had a gentleman today who couldn't figure out how to go on Zoom so we went to the town office and Ruth made it happen so that he could participate. If folks want to participate, that is absolutely available to them. And I hope that that doesn't stand in the way of voting on good policies that should move forward for the town, including this one.

Any other comments on this one? hearing on the town manager position and I'm actually going to call like a three minute recess so people can take a little break and then we'll um don't disconnect from the meeting. Uh take a little three minute recess and then we'll come back and get going again.

sure I'm back on. Rob, are you there? Okay, you're good. All right. Okay. So, at this point, I will um we'll start the portion of the public hearing that's going to um regarding the marijuana articles that are on um on the ballot. And uh we don't have any vis visual presentation on this one but um just as a little bit of context because there is some more detailed information uh on the website. The um uh there's basically I think there's eight or nine questions with uh that have to do with marijuana. Uh half of them with regard to medical and half of them with regard to uh what they call adult use. And what these questions are asking and is what if any type of

commercial marijuana activity do Durham residents want to allow in town whether that's you know retail stores or um uh growing you know agricultural operations manufacturing or test facilities um or dispensaries um for adult use or or medical marijuana. So, we're voting on each of these separately because, for instance, that the town may be okay with one type of marijuana business, but not okay with another type of marijuana business. So, um for any type of marijuana business to be approved in town, it it would be a two-step process that Well, yeah. Um the first step is what we're voting on in November. And so we're asking in each of those articles like do you want to approve this use uh this potential uh activity in town? Um and then if the answer is yes, the way those questions are worded is that you know then officially opting in is contingent upon a later approval of uh marijuana ordinances. So what would h would let's

if for the sake of argument if one of the activities were approved in November then uh the board would start work on or uh or um hire some professional consultants to help us uh draft marijuana uh ordinances that would um put relevant regulations and constraints and guard rails on on that activity. and then that ordinance would be voted on by the town at a future town meeting. It would only be if that ordinance passed that that activity would actually then be allowed in Durham. So any activity really has to get through two votes. It has to get through this vote um that we're doing in November and then a subsequent ordinance approval vote later. And the reason we're doing it that way is that um it takes a significant amount of resources and expense to go through the process of drafting uh ordinances that would be appropriate for marijuana regulating marijuana activities. So we wanted to first ask the question, does

the town even want interested in having that activity in town? Um and if the answer is no, it stops right there. We don't draft ordinances. We don't, you know, we don't have to do anything else. If the answer is yes, then we go forward with the um expense and time needed to

draft ordinances and then bring that back to the town for that subsequent vote. So that's that's how those questions are structured and again each one um independently. So with that background, I would uh I'll open it up for um public comments or

questions on any of the uh marijuana related articles. Hi. Hello. Yes, go ahead. We can hear you. Um, I was going to give some other people some time to speak, but I'm not sure anyone else is uh is here for that today. But I'll I'll go ahead and give my piece anyway. Um, uh, at the last meeting, uh, some of the concerns I just want to address, uh, one of them being, uh, this being kind of brought up again about it being a gateway drug and, um, and I do appreciate, uh, the sharing of of the story. I think um I don't remember who it was, but uh I applaud them for their recovery and I'm sorry that they went through that. But um that gateway drug theory has been disproved. I mean this is like uh this is ancient stuff. This is from uh prohibition times. I mean this is like drug war on drugs. This was all created uh by the government. I mean uh this was disproven back in like the 90s. Uh correlation

does not equal causation. Uh the truth is that actually the vast um and I'll say that again, vast majority do not go on to use harder drugs. Um uh so I I just like people to remember that that uh um that that's kind of uh been disproven. Um uh going on about uh safety concerns. Um uh if if we're worried about safety, uh regulating this is probably the best way that we can um ease those concerns. Uh this this will will cause a decline in the black market. Um we'll be able to um

uh we'll be able to, you know, write ordinance controlling uh how these operations um uh are are, you know, are operating. Um I can guarantee you if we stay an island of prohibition uh that that these dangerous practices will be happening and there will be no regula regulation over it. This is um uh this

is just the nature of the black market. So, if we want to have the black market decline from 100% to much lower levels, um uh then that's our that's our best way forward is to pass this and write a really good ordinance. Um I'd like to say it like I did before publicly. Um I think a citizens citizen committee uh is the best way to move forward with that. Um I know we're talking about hiring out outside help uh and people are concerned with the cost of uh that we're spending on things right now. I think for a lot uh less cost than what we're talking about. Uh we could come together as a community, people on both sides of the issue, writing an ordinance. Um uh I I'm kind of disheartened to hear from everyone on the uh town side of things that they think that they lack um the ability, the knowledge. What I'm not sure how you said it, but uh the sophistication. I'm not sure. But um I I I think that's kind of selling yourself

short. Uh you guys are clearly very smart people. You're uh you're writing these ordinances. You're coming up with these uh plans to get a town man. This all sounds great. Sounds like you can handle this kind of stuff. This stuff is not complicated. People are are doing this in other towns uh really well. Um

in terms of bringing uh benefits to the town, which was a big concern. Uh it sounded like people were were upset that that taxes are going to the state and not to the town. Um other towns have have written in license fees and even annual fees uh based on the different tiers that the state has come up with with uh for example in cultivation tier one to tier 4 with the canopy size. Um you know we can have people uh you know have a lower annual fee for if they're just a small craft cannabis producer. Uh and then for the larger operations, we could be making thousands of dollars a year on annual uh uh fees. And um we're

also going to preserve open land, encourage agricultural uh practices in Durham. Uh we're going to create jobs. Um uh I'd also like to mention um let's see uh some of these risky uh you know things with risk that people are talking about these uh with manufacturing. You know someone brought up butane explosions. Um again I'd just like to reference that there are uh many different types of extractions. A lot of these are traditional methods that have been used for thousands of years. And we're not just talking about a butane explosion. That's actually ancient technology in the cannabis extraction realm. That's that's coming from people back in the 90s and or in two early 2000, you know, in the black market in their basement trying to open blast butane extract their their cannabis. That's what you're worried about. and and we can avoid having that stuff um by regulating it and having uh having these

laboratories which are very very advanced C1 D1 accredited laboratory facilities um many of which I've talked to and and and in fact they're held to such a high standard it's like a hund times than what a someone heating a home you the levels that would be in someone's who's heating their home with propane or natural gas. They're they're they're held to these crazy standards so that there aren't uh these problems that everyone's worried about. Um uh and so yeah, I think that we're only hurting these these producers by trying to say they can they can maybe grow it but not um do anything else with it. Um so yeah, I I think uh I think that's all I have to say right now. Um, but I I I have I have I mean I could go on for days talking about the science behind this stuff and and I have plenty of resources and I encourage anyone uh who has questions and who's concerned um uh or just wants to talk about it in any

way to reach out to me. Sorry I didn't say my name at the beginning. William Grimes someone on Royalsboro Road at East Branch Farm. Uh, again, I' I'd love to talk about this stuff with anyone who wants to talk about it and and and I think there are a ton of people in in in town. Um, we passed the straw poll. Uh, I think everyone uh is for this. It's not a comfortable thing to come on and talk about um for a lot of people. So, um, in in in that regard, um, I I think we you would be surprised how many people are for this. And um and I just think that uh voting against it or trying to delay what is the inevitable. This is where things are moving. We're just talking about, you know, uh about being afraid that we're not going to be able equipped to um handle this task. I think we're plenty equipped. I think our our state's motto, Durigo, I lead um if I'm not um mistaken. Um, uh, I think we

should, uh, I think we should follow that motto. I think we should show the rest of the state what a craft cannabis, um, a town promoting craft cannabis can look like and that we can do it right and and avoid all these issues that, uh, everyone everyone thinks comes along with cannabis. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you, Ruth. Yes. Great. My name is Kate Parkin. I live on David Lewis Drive. Um, and I have a comment and a question. My comment is, um, I just want to make sure that folks are aware if they have concern about cannabis related businesses in Durham that some of our neighboring towns do have dispensaries. I know that Lisbon has two. Um, I know there are some businesses in Gray. So if folks are concerned that we would become um you know a I don't know a place where people from other communities would come that there would be unsavory activities happening I think we can just go right across the river and see what is happening in Lisbon which seems to be going along just fine from my perspective of just driving past the dispensaries. Um, so I just wanted to share that that it's actually already happening in neighboring um, communities and um, I very much appreciate the explanation of um, this vote simply

allowing the town to look at moving forward with ordinances and that there would be another vote. Seems like it makes a lot of sense to um, initiate that process. I uh my question is and I apologize for not watching the previous um uh meeting where this it sounds like perhaps this was addressed, but I'm curious about the tax benefits to the town um to Durham um if we did allow these businesses. I know that that is something that I frequently hear folks um complaining about about taxes and it seems like um businesses that would allow us to grow our tax base here in Durham would be beneficial to um folks on fixed incomes um and people who are looking to decrease that tax bill. So, I understand that perhaps the sales tax would go to the state. Um, but could you give some information please on um what other tax or um other kinds of revenue related benefits there would be to Durham if we did allow to move forward

um with these businesses. Thank you. Well, the two um two that I can think of off the top of my head um potential revenue sources um one would be the fees that Mr. Grimes alluded to uh earlier. uh community, a lot of communities um that have permitted this type of activity do charge some sort of an annual licensing fee. Uh I I'm not exactly sure how much that is, but I I think it probably varies as Mr. Grimes is saying by the size of the business. So that's um that would probably be a

you know a few thousand dollars a year maybe, I'm guessing. Um, and then the other source of revenue would be if the if the assessed value of the property where a business was located uh increased, then we would collect um more property taxes from that um from that

property because of the increase in assessed value. And so there's really no way to say how much that might be um because it kind of depends on the size of the operation and what goes on it for buildings or whatever. But that would be the other um the other source of revenue. So licensing fees and any um increase and assessed value of the property um because of the presence of the business.

from Linda says, "I have been a treatment provider for adolescence and adults with sub substance abuse abuse disorders for over 20 years. The comments about marijuana not being a gateway drug are inaccurate. According to my clinical experience in the National Institute on Drug Abuse agree that the vast majority of people who use marijuana do not develop cannabis use disorders or other substance use disorders. However, it is a misrepresentation to present cannabis as a risk-free substance or that the gateway theory has been debunked. These comments do not mean the town should not consider marijuana businesses, but it's important to be realistic about risks, especially to adolescents.

Grimes says 4,000, but I don't know what it wasn't an answer to. Oh, maybe the fees. Well, he's got his hand up again. Why don't about the fees. In some other towns, uh Georgetown was the one I was referencing there. Uh they did a really nice job on their ordinance and uh that was the tier 4 um cultivation uh annual fee. Um and again, those were those tiers. Tier 1, tier two, tier three, tier four. That's the state level stuff about the canopy size. So, it's promoting the smaller business owner craft cannabis. they'll they won't be charged as much and it'll avoid those other people. Also, I just wanted to go back uh thank you for the comment and thank you for all your work on um on substance abuse. Um I just wanted uh I I I agree that there is you know I'm not saying that it doesn't come with its risks. Uh but you know there's there have been plenty of studies uh this is one I'm going to um reference since

we're talking about risk the comparative risk among alcohol, tobacco, cannabis and other elicit uh drugs. So those being meth, ecstasy, tobacco, cocaine, and heroin. uh uh on the on the lower risk of that end by far uh when it comes to the ratio between a toxic dose and a typical human intake, the lowest possible risk is cannabis. There's this is uh you know there's no question on the other end of that spectrum is alcohol. Um uh so I mean I'm I'm I'm

right there with you. Um, I know that there can be problems with it too, but the overwhelming uh research in the medical realm is that this can help people with drug problems. And um and and in terms of kids having access to something uh that is on the highest risk like alcohol, uh that no one blinks an eye at that that's available. Um overwhelmingly the thing that young kids have access to and and can cause serious problems. Um and again heroin being the next the next worst um one we know what the what the opioid epidemic uh epidemic has caused me and again I could go on about that but um overwhelmingly uh cannabis is helping is helping these people with these problems. Thanks.

Thank you. Hey, I have one more comment here that I see from uh JNC Sanborn. Says, "If surrounding towns such as Lisbon are allowing dispensaries, Durham doesn't need to do anything. If someone wants to buy marijuana, they can go to Lisbon."

comment in the chat as well Yep. I see it. Now there's two. Uh there's one from an says, "License fees are required by state law to be related to administrative costs. We couldn't pass a fee that is significantly more than our costs in order to generate revenue for the general fund." Um and then the next one is from Heather. It says, "I'm curious why we are not taking the same approach to town manager as we are cannabis. we are voting to approve then crafting the policies around it then voting on it again to put it in place.

completely separate issues and what the the yeah they're not analogous at all and the the the town manager discussion is closed at this point anyway. So, um any uh let's see, Jud Grimes has his hand up again. Am I still unmuted? Yeah. Um uh yeah, just uh with the fee thing uh in response to Ann's um uh uh comment about this fee structure. I'm uh I'm not proposing that we come up with some astronomical thing to make money for the town. I just um that was in response to the concern that this was going to somehow cost the town money, you know, uh that you wouldn't have resources uh that's not bringing any resources to the town. I just am showing that uh that it will and that and that and then that you can use those resources to do the things you need to um to and um also while I'm on here I just wanted to talk because I I do I also in that reminded me uh I'm not sure who Ann is in contact with uh at the

state but the people at the office of marijuana policy who I'm in contact with uh definitely plan on having a a uh an an involvement in this uh uh because it's in their state. Um so, uh there was a comment about that we wouldn't be receiving any help. Um they they have a whole division um uh uh dedicated uh to

the um compliance and um and I guarantee you that they will be very much enforcing compliance. Um uh so I I don't think we have any concern there about not getting help from the state. Um and also um again with the uh with any of the concerns people might have when these businesses go to apply for their uh permits from you. Um I know I know any any cost that you might that might be incurred uh through the process needing to hire outside consultants etc engineers whatever that may be to make sure that uh the town feels comfortable with what the applicant is doing. uh those fees lie on the applicant, not the town. Um so so there's not really any extra um uh monetary load this is putting on the town. That's all I was trying to get at. Thank you.

Okay. Not seeing anymore. Looking checking the Q&A. We don't see anything. articles? So, I will close the uh public comment portion on the um marijuana articles. And I will just say thank you to everybody for um participating today and sharing your views and asking your questions. Um you uh please feel free to continue to send questions via contact us link on the website or some other way if you um you think of questions later on that you uh would like to have answered. We're happy to um do what we can to get answers for you. But that will conclude our public hearing for today and again thank you very much.