TranscriptPlanning Board Meeting ~ November 2, 2022

come uh to our meeting this evening uh the November 2nd meeting of the Durham planning board uh and I'll call it to order we have a quorum with Miss Caplinger Mr Puritan and myself John Talbot and we're expecting a fourth member to join us shortly and so we have the Quorum and then are there any amendments to the agenda

move on to the acceptance of the minutes of Prior meeting are there any uh comments on the minutes change recommended changes are otherwise just in time please note that our newest full-time voting member Tyler Hutchinson has joined us in the building is in the building I would move to accept the minutes from October 5th and 12th as presented okay second second okay all in favor raise a hand please a 4-0 it passes

exchange on non-agendive items Town officials which would be Mr DeBarge yes they have three items to just report on the first is that I'll be meeting with the select board next Tuesday night at the Town manager's request to discuss the ordinance amendments process for the town meeting and I know John is going to be there and also Lois Chelsea from the historic district commission and John has contacted Sam from the Samantha from the Conservation Commission suggesting she may want to participate as well so John will be giving a report on what we've been doing in terms of the affordable housing initiative and I suspect that Lois will be giving the select board an update on what they've been looking at um so that's uh next Tuesday night at the select board meeting which happens to be the same as election day uh secondly I did send out to the board uh an invitation to participate in the Maine Municipal Association planning

board uh training which obviously with newer members but it's also a good opportunity because sometimes there's changes in in laws uh in terms of both the laws as well as lawsuits that may have affected things like public information or different rules so they

usually give you an update plus they just go over some of the procedures procedural issues for conducting planning board meetings so that's on December 13th it's a zoom meeting they did do workshops around the state that you had to participate in or attend this can be done through a zoo Zoom uh and it's December uh 13 4 to 7 p.m and the

town will cover the 45 registration fee and if you have any trouble registering just let me know and I'll see if I can fix it if you're interested and then finally just an update on housing starts as you may recall that in 2018 the town adopted a new comprehensive plan that has an addendum uh directed toward when the town removed the growth area from the plan as well as the building cap number of housing starts there were there was an addendum that was adopted that says that the town should track two two uh indicators first being the number of new housing permits that are issued in any calendar year as well as how many lots are approved by the planning board so up to beginning of November there

have been 30 new housing starts and if it hits 45 or more then the comprehensive plan provides a plan a process for considering whether to have a moratorium and establishment of a growth area growth plan that would meet the state requirements as a response to a sudden surge in development so 45 is the trigger we monitor it through the code officer monthly reports and the planning board has had one subdivision this year two last year about 26 slots I

think total and then this year you've got the current one that's under review with 13 Lots so obviously from the subdivision review standpoint it's not even close to the trigger of 100 Lots being approved so I just wanted to let you know where we are so far it's 30 code officer doesn't have any new homes applications in it this point so it's what you're probably not going to get another 15. it's almost 30 of those actually where permits have been pulled yes and those are new homes new homes being constructed last year I think there were about 22 total so it is an uptick but interest rates just went up another 0.75 so uh that's probably going to keep a damper on it for a while

no just new homes subdivisions is summer in summerella okay yeah okay oh the permits have been pulled yeah so the 30 include boa Hill subdivision so on and so forth and we don't differentiate between in subdivisions or other subdivisions okay okay um and that's that's all that discussion came up at the selectman meeting for 45 Lots would you send Jerry just maybe a blip that I think I explained it correctly uh the 45 trigger permits would you just let him know and he could pass that on to the so I think I actually got it right but yeah

of that yeah it was just to be sure yep there any residents of the town of Durham who would like to speak on anything that is not on the agenda that is land use and not on the agenda seeing none will move on to non-residents who would like to make public comment on land Durham land use and not on the agenda seeing none we will move on to our first business our continuing business the substantive review of conditional use application of Celebration tree to farm for camping public workshops and events at 125 Bowie Hill road map 10 lot 43 and we will not take public comments so gentlemen uh Mr DeBarge would you like to take us off uh just a summary for the public of the agenda notes that I provided to the planning board which summarize the process to date as well as what the current status of the application is so as the endnotes indicate on August 3rd the planning board conducted the first substantive review of this application

and then scheduled a sitewalk that as well as the following meeting where tabled at the request of the applicant the planning board then reschedule the sitewalk for October 5th and after that came back here and continued the substantive deliberations the board tabled until tonight to give the applicant the opportunity to prepare some additional submissions specifically looking for a formal parking plan that met the requirements of article eight of the Durham land use ordinance site plan review as well as a lighting plan that would also address those requirements and I'm explained last time that under the conditional use criteria provisions of the ordinance the board can pull out standards from the site plan review without triggering an entire site plan review process if you deem that it's necessary to determine whether they meet the criteria and or to apply conditions of approval so that was the basis on

which you requested those two pieces of information the applicant did submit and I put into the packet a computer generated diagram of both the main parking area to the left or west of the entrance to by the barn showing uh oh let's see it was um parking spaces with I think there were 30 uh I had the numbers in here 30 parking spaces with a dimension of nine and a half feet by 18 feet and an aisle with a 24 feet and then uh also the

generated a computer generated lighting plan which simply showed where lighting fixtures would be located and what type of lighting was proposed and then they did the same thing for the Overflow parking area with a parking diagram as well as a lighting diagram uh I did note in the agenda packet that

they did not provide any illumination levels uh as specified in the site plan review standards for the lighting they just simply gave locations and the type of fixtures that would be provided the board also directed the applicant to consult with the road commissioner and either get permits or input on the site distances from those two Road entrances Calvin did go out and do measurements and he found that three out of the four site distances met the standard of 305 feet of view line along Bowie Hill Road for approaching Cars one of the the main

driveway entrance looking uh looking East would would not meet it because of vegetation in the right-of-way as well as the mailbox and there's this precise measurement you basically it's the person sitting in the car a certain distance from the pavement when they're looking how far can they see so Calvin did that and uh and he suggested that that would need to be a condition of approval and I've drafted conditions of approval that include that since publication of my of the agenda packet the applicants have submitted some additional information and I'm sure we'll want to discuss that tonight they did submit an email which I will distribute to you giving more details on their plans for the lighting and then they also responded to the draft conditions of approval that I had provided to the board requesting some modifications to those thank you and I would just say in terms of my drafting of the conditions of

approval and the findings I'm just trying to facilitate the board making a decision on this application my intent was not to say this is what the board should do and what I did in preparing it is basically went through the application and uh and looked at the minutes and the public my recollection and my notes of the public discussion and the board deliberations and I just tried to put down as much information as I could and then provide that to you as a as a starting place for your deliberation and then so I would just indicate that make any and all changes that you feel appropriate either as a result of your own review or as input from the applicants so and as I said the uh here here and

actually maybe we should wait until you get to deliberations on their proposed modifications to the conditional uh when you go through your decision making to hand them home yeah I'll leave it on those you can review the lighting information and hear from the applicants okay before we go any further I do need to do one administrative thing Tyler you were not at the last meeting so correct were you able to watch the video or do you feel comfortable that you've got enough knowledge and to vote this evening I did watch the video and I do feel I have enough knowledge one of our voting members okay in that case um I guess the applicant would go ahead and present anything you'd like to do at this point and then we'll get on to

there's not too much more to present the parking map one thing I will know just um is that after the review after the site plan or site visit we decided to take a section of the garden um out so that's why it you know probably looks bigger than what you envisioned there when the garden with the garden there so just by taking a certain section out it allows us to then get that 60 feet which allows the two aisles along with the or sorry the two stalls plus the 24 foot aisle so that

was all measured out and yeah and then similarly I mean the Overflow not much change there but on the garden side and um yeah and then I think on the lighting plan I mean um as I stated in the additional information I mean you know kind of went through all the standards you know we'll work to meet all those standards um still you know determining his act fixtures and everything but as we purchase those um we'll make sure that you know it meets the right foot candle illumination levels and everything so it's when when you say right you're talking about Pro the town for the town yeah

from any members of the board from the road commissioner the bench that's the one that is not near your house it's not or not the rotary right it's the other one okay yes I believe it's that one yeah hashtag yeah the rotary yeah not the one that we were I think basically we need to remove vegetation on like from between the two

driveways and then also past that driveway so yeah we've identified some trees and some shrubs that we can take out and um and you know as we looked at it with the road commissioner that was suitable and move the mailbox yeah we're gonna move the mailbox to the um you know essentially the west side of the driveway yeah I'm just bringing it up just just because I don't think it's a big deal um at all but um I think you're drive that second driveway is in the resource protection right uh the driveway on the like not our

primary driveway yeah yes yeah so any veg removed there if that's where you're to be removed or is it the other side it's all within the road right away yeah right so yeah good point so it's all along that Main Road not yeah it's a lot of Main Road okay it doesn't even matter okay but now I fully understand so thank you um and then looking at the site plan uh the drawing that the newest one in here is the toilet still going between the yurt and the bus yeah okay yeah I don't think I included that on the parking map because I was focusing on parking not the composting got it yeah yeah

that's all I got right now thank you uh just one question also on the drawings um because I don't see a label for it how far from the road are the parking spaces um they are about 20 feet can we run okay there's a tree line that makes yeah okay yeah just for I think the ordinance says they shall be located within 25 feet of the front property line I'm not exactly sure where that is on the drawing um where the front property line would be basically where Bowie Hill Road is okay so that would be so right now you think it's about 20 feet yeah which would be slightly smaller than what we'd ask for in the in the ordinance okay we can discuss as we're voting if we're going to make that a condition to change it to 25 because it's 20 and you're saying it's 20 feet from the edge of the pavement yeah which is the but that that 20 feet includes right away which is not your property yeah I mean so yeah

there's where that property line is exactly so yeah I mean it's it's close you know it is close and I mean I yeah and I mean I did see that um I was a little unclear whether that was property lines on the on opposite sides um like on the edges um particularly because I've seen like the getting go parking lot for example is right next to the roadway or Jonathan's is right next to roadway so seeing those existing parking lots being clearly not 25 feet away from um I didn't see I was I was unclear that had to be 25 feet from the road um you know I would I would not want to have that be a condition of for the driveway because then that would what that would mean is we'd be taking out more of the garden um and you know the interest of conservation and also organic practices we don't want to you know pave up we're not we're not Paving over anyways but we don't want to be driving over the garden

and you're already cutting out some of that so we could make that space um but yeah we have as well just I think looking at what yeah I was just going to point out that as I stated previously the board can pull out of the site plan review standards whatever you feel is appropriate and necessary this application does not have to go through site plan review and you make a determination that it meets all the site plan review standards so what I would suggest is that there's a pretty dense vegetative buffer there between the road and that's one of the reasons for the 25 foot setback is to maintain separation between parking lots and abutting uses so I think you're okay if you accept that whatever the distance is now with the existing mature buffer you know you don't have to apply that standard okay and I'm okay with that depending upon how much vegetation we're taking out yeah still going to be a vegetative

buffer yeah there will be I mean because that's that's actually where that is is not the section we need to take out vegetative buffer of um it is on the opposite side so it's basically okay yeah so it's I mean it would be kind of in front of our house we're still going to try to keep vegetated buffer because we don't want to have like open up our house the road but yeah but where the parking lot is that's we won't be taking anything out there so one of my concerns is a whole bunch of headlights now flashing I'm not yeah for sure picturing who where your neighbors are in relation to all those headlights no definitely

that was the one and yeah that's a that's a good point about the um because it looks like the Overflow lot since that's all the vegetation would have to be removed there and that looks like you'd have more flexibility in that as well so yeah and the vegetation it seems like it would give you a approximation of hundreds of feet

one I have was addressed I was verbally at least a discussion with the road commissioner is a concern about not having gravel in the parking area uh my concern with that is that if it is Muddy like the four four inches we have rain we had the other day Dragon went out onto Bowie Hill Road yeah would you be amenable to having I

guess what I would call a construction road but a section of stone that right at the entrance there so that it's a stone entrance to the drive not asphalt whatever just something to help the stone bait basically is supposed to pull the mud up off of the vehicles as they go and maintaining that so that if you know you had four and a half inches of rain you had an event and everybody started pulling out Bowie Hill Road in both directions could get pretty slick and pretty ugly what's issue with the gravel do you mentioned the road commissioner says something about gravel well he asked to have it on the parking he we talked about it and asked or recommend he was concerned is maybe the right way to say it that if it was all just great as it is now just grass that if you had a bunch of rain it would turn into mud so people get stuck that's on you guys but as my concern is more pulling mud out into uh under the road

yeah and so you're um can you repeat what the the stone entrance you said is that yeah it's probably the width of the entrance if you don't mind I'm going to ask one of the smarter people behind me construction or behind you would be the construction road 20 feet long what is it generally it's not a construction road it's a con it's a construction stabilization entrance stabilization so basically it's a certain distance from the pavement into the property at the road so that it's it's loose gravel rocks so that any mud that's on the tires has taken off uh before it gets out onto the roadway they have to do this like at construction sites as you were mentioning but is that just during construction right and that that's what the idea is that it'll last for a while that would be the intent is that it's not normally they pave over or create the gravel road once they're done with their construction but I think what

John is pointing to him a Calvin was Raising you know if that the applicants that I did put into the findings that the applicant has testified we discussed it at the sidewalk that in their opinion the substrate of that area is adequate to sustain the supported vehicles that will be expected and there's no need to create a gravel base for it that's their testimony and they have we when we went out there we saw no indication of of course it's been very very dry all summer but we saw no indication of areas of rutting and erosion so the board can't accept their testimony and John is just throw that out he's responding to Calvin's comments that he'd be concerned that if it's not created with the proper gravel base and surfacing that they could be tracking mud out onto Blue Hill world so that's that's a point of discussion I mean a construction road has you know for the subdivision probably has 120 ton

dump trucks driving over it and so it's going to get a lot obviously a lot more use and and that it may not be necessary when I throw that out for the discussion on the applicant to clean up the the road after the fact if there's a much of it so

I don't think you know when we we're looking at worst case scenario and if you're looking at 30 cars going in there to beat something down to that to beat the vegetation down enough to make it pulling dirt out onto the road you'd have to be doing that on many days in a row and I from what I've heard that is not the what their application is going to be okay I'm I'm good with this I think we're saying we'll pass on that and well I understand what I understand where Calvin is coming from but if they were utilizing this regularly much more regularly than what they have presented then I would say it would be a concern but that is not what they're asking for okay consensus okay that sounds good I think I agree with that one that was one of my concerns so I think that was only concerned uh on that one until we get into the meat of the commitments or whatever findings of fact did you want to hand those out at this

point uh yes I'll provide the applicant's comments prepare prepare giraffe findings in fact for us with uh notes from the last meeting things that uh we asked for that the applicant agreed to and I if I understand this correctly you're asking for clarification on some of those uh so Mr chairman as I mentioned in the in the notes I think is that at least for the next application but I think the the principle is the same here what the board should do is go down through and perhaps review all the findings first and determine are the any that you would

add any that you would modify or anything you would delete based on your deliberations and then when you get to the conditions of approval you can ask the applicant if they are willing to accept uh the proposed conditions of approval you may add some but at that point you could have that discussion of what the applicant would like to see changed okay let's do it that way then so we will start with uh the number one on which is public health impacts the conditional use review criteria and Public Health impacts are there any comments on either

of those read them and then you can discuss them so based on my review of the application I determined that the board could consider the findings that the applicant on public health impacts proposes to install a leech field to handle Wastewater for the proposed sink and outdoor shower and second finding would be that the applicants propose to install a composting installed composting toilet outhouses and will it compost all human waste

satisfied a reasonable burden of proof of compliance with creation for public health impacts second second scavenger any discussion we vote to ask that would be in terms of the conditions of approval okay not the findings okay in that case uh the the

vote raise your hand or vote to approve 4-0 now the second condition of this Criterion is traffic safety impacts and there was a lot more discussion on this item uh first proposed finding is that the applicant submitted a parking diagram showing a parking lot for 34 cars with parking space and aisle with Dimensions meeting the standards of section 8.64 e to the west of the main entrance parallel to Bowie Hill Road with an existing forested buffer part between the parking area and public roadway B the applicant submitted an overflow parking diagram for 18 cars accessed by the easterly entrance that meets the parking and space standards of six 8.6 e c the

applicant submitted lighting plans for the main parking and overflow areas showing location of solar lights and I would perhaps suggest an additional extension of that to indicate and a written indication that they will meet the illumination standards of uh are of section 8. but I'm just going to make a note of that myself

have a a question on um turning them off when the event's over and setting a time that um they go off at night okay so the parking let's maybe get all of those out and then you guys can bring up following your lead yep uh in so I'm making a note too that they added uh submitted added info on illumination levels

the substrate of the proposed parking is adequate to support the weight of vehicles without construction of gravel parking areas and access aisles e the road commissioner reviewed the existing site entrances and determined the easterly entrance overflow parking meets the minimum site distance for 35 miles per hour which is 3 305 feet and that meets section 1.4 of appendix one of the land use ordinance F the road commissioner determined that the Westerly main entrance does not meet the minimum site distance for 35 miles per hour of 305 feet unless existing vegetation in the road right away and the mailbox Israel is cleared and the road the mailbox is relocated and finally uh G was a condition of approval is needed to ensure that once the trees are removed the increased sight distance will be maintained by the applicants

having the illumination of the parking lots not be 24 hours I'm assuming or all night yes I mean I unless there's a reason for that but pick it if you've done it nine turn them off I mean I realize people have to leave and stuff so yeah

the other question I had on that one is just a verbese thing but a uh letter G if we could change trees to landscaping or plant material or something like that World commissioner has basically stated what needs to be removed once that it certainly it sounds to me that the applicant agrees with that but once that has been done does the road commission need to review it again to make sure it meets a requirement I would say yes I would agree with that

by the time concern would be a condition Road commissioner or Building Code Enforcement or is it a road commissioner in part because it's within the road right away Road I would uh suggest a condition on maintaining the vegetative buffer between the main parking lot and the road I think it's just wild growth if I remember correctly so it's probably not hard to do but just uh to make sure there's not light pollution because I know there is a neighbor right across the street from that Point on Main parking lot just a suggestion you might want to consider that under Criterion number four environmental impacts as opposed to traffic okay I think that's yeah yeah hold that thought

John you had mentioned things about lighting uh actually going to have people staying there which you are illuminated I am thinking my thought was that the parking lot is closest yeah yeah that would you back by the year it's for the year to the trailers that would you would need those for safety yeah getting to know the train and all that other kind of stuff my thought is you know particularly you mentioned 10 foot poles those are the ones I think that would want to reduce the the light pollution so if we want to clarify to make it just along the parking lot um I'm fine with that because you walk walking paths are eliminated with solar yeah lights which are very low to the ground yeah yeah like really pretty dim solar lights on the ground yeah okay yeah my concern is just the 10-foot parking okay good question the good point though

Safety impacts are we ready for a vote Mr DeBarge are you all set I'm all set a motion to approve with the conditions that we've stayed with the conditions well we'll get to the conditions as a separate at the end okay just on the findings how about the changes that we've made to changes the only change well make sure I get them uh the one was that they did submit additional information testifying that the illumination levels will be made to meet the the Section 8 requirement for foot candles and what was the other one and G just that instead of trees just plant material or something

that should be I'm just lining out the word yeah they're lining out the word trees and putting plant material plant material got it okay I'll make a motion if I can okay I can will not create unsafe vehicular or pedestrian traffic conditions um when added to existing foreseeable traffic in its vicinity I will second Miss Camp Ledger and Mr Hutchinson seconded all those in favor raise your hand please looks like 4-0 to approve

similar to traffic but a little bit different um yeah if a the applicants have testified that they will limit maximum site occupancy during the annual craft fair to 100 the oxy occupancy limits will be monitored and enforced by staff be the applicants have testified that they will post no parking signs on Bowie Hill Road staff will enforce the no parking areas and see the applicants have testified that they will work with the fire chief and code officer to address Life Safety Code requirements for public assembly say that the occupancy was going to be limited to 100 for all events or is it just like you're not going to go over 100 for any event right no so um 100 I mean right now it says 104 just the annual craft fair here it doesn't say that only I believe under uh

under 5B it says limits uh just to clarify the intent here was to say this is the most intense use of the property so in other words so theoretically if it if it's safe with the maximum it'll be safe for anything less than 100 people on sciatica

event yeah I mean like during our tree farm season you know people might be out in the woods it could get right right around there right over there but for the event itself no okay occupancy during we'll we'll limit occupancy to 100.

so strikeout during the annual craft here yeah um other events right there's a 50 person limit yeah that's something I believe under five yeah okay his emotion please help me go ahead the applicant has satisfied a reasonable burden of proof of compliance with the Criterion for Public Safety uh aspects impacts second please Mr Puritan seconded by Miss cablinger votes to approve raise a hand please 4-zip

erosion and sedimentation or adverse effects on Water Supplies three proposed findings a the applicants testified that the substrate of the proposed access Island parking spaces are adequate sport Vehicles no construction will be involved in those areas which are currently vegetated per the sitewalk observation and show no signs of erosion or sedimentation B water requirements for the water and wastewater services will be minimal and see the applicants have testified that all Wastewater and composting will comply with public health safety standards we want to include anything in here on resource protection just the fact that all facilities are proposed outside of the resource protection like is this the section that would be it okay what do you guys think about that remember they move things in fact it's good to address it because if anybody ever question it yeah so I'd like to add that in there

so we'll add a d that all facilities have been moved outside of the resource Protection District the applicants have any concerns about that when we add things like that that's one particular okay am I supposed to bring up my previous comment here this is um if you remember what it is Tyler Juliet remember said maybe I should go in five visual impact yes that's right either one okay yeah I just want to still feel important for the next one yep

uh a motion are there any I will make the motion that the applicant has satisfied a reasonable burden of proof of compliance with the Criterion for environmental impacts I'll second it's been moved in a second in any comments any further discussion excuse me hearing none uh votes to approve please raise your hand but looks like four to zip

Tyler is sitting there right number five is a scale and intensity of use that the proposed use will be compatible with existing uses in the neighborhood with respect to physical size visual impact intensity of use and proximity to other structures this was probably the second one that probably raised the most issues and discussion uh fine proposed findings are a the applicants are requesting conditional use approval to expand activities to include a yurt and camper and community events B the applicants have testified that they will limit maximum site occupancy for the annual craft fair to 100 and will enforce those attendance limits and tonight your other discussion indicated maximum occupancy at any time will be a hundred

intent was to say that it would be only during the craft fair which is one event per year that they would reach that level and that sounds like it's possibly changing and that raises an issue on all of this is that just understand we and I understand the concern of the applicant for flexibility but part of the difficulty for the code officer will be if it's this moving set of targets it's

going to be very difficult for him if if he gets complaints to verify either that the applicants are in compliance or in violation so it really needs to be as specific as possible and if if the applicants end up they want to make changes they can come back and ask for an amended approval so I just think it's important for the board to be cautioned about just leaving it yeah lots of variation with no way to determine uh specificity of the limits

um that's a good point George if you want to talk a little bit more about that just let me let me just get the other two because they were late up to two monthly events will occur between April and October and will be limited to 50 and D no weddings will be hosted okay so if that was the idea was that only

the craft there will be up to 100 or above 50 then we could state that somewhere in here there will be one event per year over 50. that is in the conditions of approval right now yeah so in the conditions of approval it says one event per year it says um no more than one annual event with the maximum occupancy of 100 okay so above 50 right like 50 is your other Max for the rest of them okay yeah so that is in the conditions right now okay um and then also the new thing that we just got here about um so the idea is to have more than two monthly events yeah so I mean what we had brought as the change uh last last month's meeting

was saying two monthly events that have Amplified music and then having we would have other events and workshops that can occur with limited acoustic or recorded music because I mean as a Wellness Center offering yoga workshops or you know other things around our tree farming I mean to only be able to have two events a month is very limiting for what um both you know for us as a farm Wellness Center and for the community that we want to engage and you know what we heard from Neighbors was you know the Amplified music being really where there's the impact I mean with this said you know we're not looking to do events every single day of the week uh and have them all be at 50 I mean a lot of these are are smaller workshops like a yoga class and when you know talking about limited acoustic or recording music you know having music during a yoga class for example it's not something that neighbors would be hearing and would

pose a nuisance so that's I mean that's the proposed I mean basically what in this document I mean there's a proposed change to 5C and then I mean similarly there's a connection to 6B and then also with the conditions of approval so again my concern is that there's no specificity so it could be five days a week that there's an event in the morning with 50 people and event in the afternoon with 50 people with music with

you know community so there's no limit there's just a statement that they don't anticipate but I mean the goal is to make this business more and more successful so the code officer let's just say they did have events five days a week because there's some big celebration Earth Day or whatever and then they have the the annual or not

not the the monthly event on Saturday with the Amplified music so it's like all week it's that level and if that that still meets the criteria the Criterion the divorce judgment that's fine but my concern would be just a statement it's not going to happen very often and so the question well it becomes what does the code officer do how does he know when they've pushed the limit of what the board intended to limit it to for intensity and scale of use fitting the neighborhood

um I can hear my neighbors and it doesn't have occasional parties doesn't bother me but there's no Amplified music or there's anything else I think that if we go to having multiple more than two meetings per month playing guitars playing whatever people are going to hear that that is different than what I've thought we'd been going through up to this point so I'm reluctant to just have an unlimited number of events an open number and there's a difference between in a community event where they have a variety show in a a workshop where

they're having eight or ten people together to discuss organic farming a small Workshop in the barn that's a whole different thing again there just needs to be some more clarity in terms of what the limits are going to be so that the code officer has the guidance that he needs yeah I mean I think you know we're we're open to further clarifying our limits and also just wanting to do that within a reasonable way so we're not trying to Define like have five different categories of what you know we can do X number at 10 under 10 and we can do you know it just gets to a point where it becomes a little bit unwieldy both for us and also for the code enforcement officer because then it would be like wait there's six different standards of events that so I want to try to find that right balance between the flexibility and also being able to have the clarity with the code seems to me you've got workshops you've got uh

monthly events and then you've got annual event so those are the I think work weekly workshops uh monthly events and annual events and what would be the intensity levels within those weekly events you could have 10 people there eight hours a day no problem uh monthly events 50 people if you have 50 people every day morning and afternoon that's a whole different level how many how many monthly events do 50 people or up to 50 people without Acoustics or without the music do you think you'll be having I mean you know right now

we're at uh 50 people I mean two to three a month yeah I mean we're not you know we also live there so it's like we're not we're not wanting to have lots of events all the time um and really I mean the core is you know doing more educational workshops but we will have the ability of our

members to rent for events I mean and also too like just to know like the variety show I mean it is Amplified because you know hearing people singing it's it's hard to hear it acoustically you know but we're not talking about a metal band playing you know for four hours uh loudly sometimes my son likes to play Rock I like to play with it some you know but like it's not we're not yeah we're not talking about like you know these Amplified music events like you know loud concerts um twice a month and then you know we're gonna have uh events that are 50 people all the time so I mean it you know if it was something where we said you know had

some amount up to 50 and some amount up to 25 I mean we could do something like that um you know again just trying to fight the find the right balance between um you know limit and flexibility there and clarity so for example weekly events unlimited maximum 25 people monthly events two per

month maximum 50 people annual event 100 people one per year that's just an example and you propose whatever you think the board will uh will be able to accept to meet the Criterion yeah I mean I think that and how many of those would have music Amplified or not that's the other issue yeah I mean that's so I mean what I would you know if we were to put it kind of those classifications what I would propose is um the one the one annual event up to 100

um and then um two monthly events with amplification up to 50 people one monthly event without amplification up to 50 people and then Unlimited Events events workshops under 25. that you know aren't aren't Amplified like they might have some music like for a yoga class could I clarify were you talking about three monthly events instead of two yeah but one of the two one of them have the Amplified uh no two out of the three would have amplification some form of amplification and one would have no amplification

where's the skull card on this well it's just from the Colts enforcement well I think if he goes over for he's called over because there's a hundred people over there on a weekday he can say this is not this is what what is what is this event and are you is this your one once a year event uh if he goes over there and the neighbor's complaining there's too many people over there he goes over and he counts 20 people on a weekday he says that's within the limits all right so I think I think it works what about like the monthly like he's like oh this is your second event and yeah if they start meeting every every weekend uh with 50 50 or more people than the kodaks you can say you're in violation yeah right

officer was called four times over in a month and then they know the violation has happened there was a violation yeah it's well advised that you would be exceeding it but I I would hate to see anything get to the point where it is a complaint that brings it some to the code's enforcement's attention and I think you are I think yeah is the same they don't want that happening it's yeah hi but at least if we put those guidelines that you had stated within this at least there is something to monitor

do you have the we have language well I just stated it again they're proposing an unlimited number of weekly events with a maximum occupancy of 25 uh three monthly events with the maximum occupancy of 50. two of which can have Amplified music and one annual event excuse me 100 people bless you

have Amplified music for our our I mean we have like Christmas music playing on a you know on a recording but not no not not bands no no either the cold officer can bring a decimal read well this will be a sensitive side I mean I think we want to try and get it right because this is really the one thing that's exactly that's the neighbors present or future me and again if at any point they want to come back and request an amendment to the approval they can do that right right okay and just clarify in the ordinance it says if they come back and request a change the board's jurisdiction is only to review the proposed change not to review the whole conditional use approval that was granted

to plug in another oh here it is Alan thank you um I would propose we add a condition to maintain the vegetative buffer between the main parking lot and the road just to keep headlights down in that parking lot should we just make it both parking lots we can't maintain another parking lot because you need to remove the vegetation for again actually between the parking lot and the property line they can it's within the road right of way that they're going to be doing the vegetative clearing so I think it can work so the board will recognize or they'll

be a fine into the to the effect that the existing buffers between the parking lots and the roadway uh satisfy the buffering requirement for light purposes I'm sorry before we do that we on letter D no weddings will be hosted I struggle with the difference between you know weddings bar mitzvahs retirement parties what do IA weddings is it maybe because weddings are bigger I mean a wedding is much bigger than a retirement party I mean I haven't hosted Apartments before but those can be big but you know like it was about Mr it would be still under 50 but I mean yeah just that the nature of weddings being a larger event you know more involved longer yeah I mean yeah we also don't need to put it there or we you know or is there I mean I don't think it's a condition of approval well I think it's good to have it there because if anybody's questioning well how did you approve this did you address

this and here it isn't right that is a good point that is kind of Niagara tourism that's pretty frequently yes and the thing we need to remember is that this will last much longer than all of us so whoever you know follows you and follows us uh to make sure that the rules are you know clearly stated so

I would move that the applicant has satisfied a reasonable burden of proof of compliance with the Criterion for scale intensity abuse with based on the changes we had just discussed I'll second that uh and you're good with you've got the changes yep okay it's been moved and seconded any additional comments those in favor please raise your hand those opposed please raise theirs it is three to one and I will explain myself this is the one that bothers me the most and so I'm not just not sure that that's the The Right Use here but I believe uh we move on to the next one

uh that it has to be compatible with the neighborhood with respect to noise and hours uh eight excuse me 6A will there will be a 9 pm cutoff for all events B only recorded or acoustic music and no Amplified bands I believe that the applicants want to see a change to that finding

is reflect that amplify music will be allowed only twice a month and at all our times recorded or acoustic music is permitted a limited basis at lower volumes music early in the morning I mean if we wanted to put a you know between nine nine a.m to 9 p.m we could do that I mean that's I mean in all cases it still would have to follow the noise limits of the ordinance which is implicit in all of this I assume like we don't have to what is the noise what is it for it's very low it's very low though basically if anyone wants to complain about you they can complain about it hey guys don't act guys a car driving by on the road can no I mean like the hours is there hours set oh it's 55 decibels seven to seven and forty five or seven a.m to 7 pm and 45 7 P.M 7 A.M if your coach will change it to 9am not turning your Christmas music on until 9 A.M that 8 A.M or something like that yeah I'm fine not listening to Christmas after 9

A.M I mean you know so 9 A.M to 9 00 P.M or 9 P.M to 9 A.M cut off right yeah got between April and October the there's no other monthly ones I mean we our barn is not insulated and so it makes it very uh yeah it's very cold we just have the annual event in December right yeah one a year yeah thing okay I mean are your will allow us to do smaller workshops and events year round but again that's that's where the uh unlimited workshops and events under 25. year round got it yeah yep okay

says only Amplified music will be allowed like twice a month and all the times recorded or acoustic music is permitted on a limited basis at lower volumes is that something we are open to so I and it's basically just a repetition in a new area so when we reference the number of times what it says instead of why all other times would we reference I can't remember the numbers we agreed to on the last one

yeah probably you've had limits that would work should we George need to go it was a nine nine a.m or 9 pm to 9 A.M cut off for events and then we will use the applicants language Amplified music will be allowed only twice a month then at all the times recorded or acoustic music is permitted on a limited basis at lower volumes per the event limits okay

I'll move that the applicant has satisfied a reasonable burden of proof of compliance with the Criterion for noise and hours of operation second Eddie it's been moved and seconded any additional discussion hand close to disapprove for the same reason gentlemen

sufficient right title or interest to apply and there are two facts proposed the first is that they submitted a copy of their warranty deed naming them as the owners and secondly the town's Taxman list also lists them as the owners okay I'll make a question that the applicant has satisfied the reasonable burden of proof of compliance with the Criterion for right title or interest seconded moved and seconded any discussion

4-0 [Music] and finally on criteria financial and Technical ability that they have the ability to carry this forward and meet the conditions and criteria first they submitted a cost estimate for the improvements of forty seven thousand five hundred they stated that they have 20 000 in cash and Equity Credit line of credit for fifty five thousand and they may apply for an additional loan from The Cooperative fund of the Northeast and finally they have stated that they have prepared a five-year cash flow projection that shows that it's financially sustainable

require some kind of statement about the equity line of credit is there any did I miss that yeah backing up the the fact you have that I'm sorry I didn't understand the question well go ahead I'm sorry I'm sorry I don't mean but yeah we usually ask for some sort of proof that the financial number is available to the applicant usually a financial institution would provide a level like a letter saying that the applicant does have this amount yeah again a subdivision is a little bit different where it does or even a site plan where it specifies you have to have the differences you have to have this letter of commitment but this is you can if you feel that's important you don't so what's required for site plan review yeah gotcha okay wherever they're doing substantial improvements obviously that's where you want to make sure okay I'm okay with that then John okay any other comments

think it's going to cost you 47.5 to do what you need to do by the year established and you have 75 5 available to you yeah and I mean the Cooperative fund of the Northeast um we will probably you know after going through approval process then apply for additional loan from The Cooperative from the Northeast they are very supportive of Cooperative Ventures and so yeah we will have adequate cash to be able to you know we could draw that home equity line of credit but we prefer to get a business loan from the poverty front of the Northeast any other discussion looking for a motion I will make the motion that the applicant has satisfied a reasonable burden of proof of compliance with the Criterion fight financial and Technical ability second thought moved and seconded any additional comments vote to applue approve pretty please raise your hand vote to disapprove and the reason for that is I think if we're going to ask

other projects to provide it and there's work being done I think it should be but that's my my personal opinion so uh it is approved and finally the conditions of approval uh it says upon consideration of the criteria the planning board made by majority vote attached conditions it deems necessary to ensure compliance violation of those conditions shall be a violation of the ordinance so I drafted possible conditions of approval based on the earlier discussion which will be modified per the current discussion first number one no more than one annual event with the maximum occupancy of a hundred two no more than two monthly events with a maximum occupancy of fifty three recorded and acoustic acoustic music only no Amplified bands four cut off time for all events is 9 pm five no parking signs to be posted on Bowie Hill Road during all events six vegetation in the right of way of Bowie Hill Road to be removed

and clearing maintained to achieve a site distance of 305 feet or greater for the main entrance driveway and we've discussed some additional ones right yes you know is this where we uh once that vegetation for the site requirement has been achieved

commissioner so seven would be Road commissioner to verify and I think it might be important to specify no of the certain events cannot happen until that happens well right that's a condition therefore yep it would have to be met yeah before prior to events um uh specify between the

the other one or maybe we don't never mind that's not a condition I apologize I will I will modify these per those notes uh we just want to make sure we get all the ones so the verification by the road commissioner once the site distances are improved the cutoff goes from 9 pm to 9 00 P.M to

uh between between 9 p.m and 9 00 A.M parking lighting of parking lots limit to 11 p.m yeah we need to repeat it I mean is it not good enough where we put it well putting it as a condition of approval I'm assuming okay that's that's what I'm asking that is my desire I thought we'd already done that but yes yeah well yes I think we voted it on that as well

okay uh let's see if I missed any clean this up and send out circulate for the board to review and comment on uh and once I get your comments back I'll go ahead and show the notice of decision with the uh with these do you want to vote on that last one yes you do uh emotion please okay just uh so just to clarify then the language will reflect the event language we said before okay yeah 9 A.M 9 p.m yeah and then the three

events a month two with them and I'll also circulate it to the applicant and make sure they're good with it yep I'll make the motion um to apply the following or the previous conditions George mentioned of approval to the permit for conditional use second moved in second any further comments if not vote to approve by raising your hand so be it four zero

we're done yeah you're done other than doing what you're supposed to do yeah um so I guess just one question I do have just as we were in our tree farm season we have I mean our annual event is at the end of this month I mean we will work to get Road sighting but uh you know there's various other things of this that we will be doing over the next period of time um so I just want to like you know I don't want to get in in trouble by having this event which we've had for now six years um and so just checking in on that with you all I think you have time to cut like the biggest ones the veg right yeah we have time to do that for sure over there or whoever to check you need to do that you have time for that right prioritize on safety yeah exactly well how much of this apply you're going to be are you saying you're gonna have more than the Christmas tree uh sales our annual I mean we've been doing the The Craft Market with the tree

sales for a number of years now and I mean now you know because it and previously you know that said that was that was fine as part of you know our farm operation without these other conditions of you know approval so I just want to like we don't want to you know yeah I think just recognizing where this has come from yeah okay you've been doing those things you're now asking to add the your add the camping add the community events so if none of that goes forward you can continue as you have been under the current approvals and we'll get the sidelines cleaned up yep

congratulations warming is coming thank you thank you thanks all right gentlemen one or many of you can move up there and we'll decide comfy again wait for uh Julia to return business new business completeness review of final plan application for the Deer Creek Crossing Subdivision map 7 lot 32A public comment will not be taken in Mr thabarge yes for the numbers of the public that may be watching uh I did provide the planning board with some agenda notes as well as the applicant and the relevant status of the project is that the board granted preliminary subdivision approval on September 7th the applicant submitted the final plan application on October 19th and I conducted a preliminary completeness review to help the board make its determination and identified the following items under Section 6.8 C2 the

dep reproval of the new stream Crossing and removal of the existing stream Crossing uh six point these are agency Agency Reviews specified in the ordinance Section 8 6.8 C3 the Army Corps of engineer would be an outside agency review for the approval of the new stream Crossing uh a 6.8 C4 MDOT permit

for the road entrance uh 6.8 C5 review comments by the main historic preservation commission for historic resources and then the ordinance also specifies under 6.8 D written approval of the street name by the street addressing officer who is also the code officer I did note again the title block so that

anybody looking at the subdivision plan can identify where this parcel is located based on the tax map uh should be in the title block or right near there uh 6.9 B16 the proposed method of a financial Improvement guarantee meeting the town attorney requirements and then finally 6.9 B17 the letter of commitment from a lending Institution for the performance guarantee I did notify the applicant of some of these deficiencies and the board did receive a supplemental packet which I'll let the applicant explain after publication of this packet pages

one through three of the final checklist which I've put in this pack part of your packet are the checklist for final plan application completeness um and under the section 6.8 F the planning board must make a determination on completeness within 30 days of the receipt of the application and I've included both the draft letter of completeness and a draft letter of incompleteness for your consideration in addition to the applicant supplement I did receive some additional information after we've published I received um and I didn't I didn't include but I have received and forwarded to the board a series of communications between myself and the applicant on the status of some of these issues I also received from the code officer today in email which I will provide to the board that basically verifies that there are no current violations that the proposed subdivision does not is not affected by

any of the aquifer protection standards of the ordinance and finally that the proposed street name of Deer Creek Crossing is acceptable from an addressing standpoint and uh and I also did receive today uh a memo from will Haskell the town's engineering peer reviewer I have not had time to process that or discuss it with him but I think it's important that one relevant uh finding that he had was that in his opinion uh Army Corps of engineer approval is required for the stream Crossing and that obviously is a very time consuming process he suggested uh and again and I would also clarify that the peer reviewer comment input to the board is no different than the town planner we are basically advisory to the board our opinions are not binding on the board so the board can consider as important input the peer reviewers comments but you're not limited by those comments and the applicant is obviously encouraged to

uh to communicate with the peer reviewer and we anticipate that they would uh have opportunity to review the peer reviewer report and respond to it prior to the next meeting and have an opportunity to make any and all Corrections that they feel are warranted by that review if there are any in there that they want to dispute they certainly have the right to assert to the board that the peer Reviewer is wrong on any part of it and make their case to you let's take that first part about the permit yes according to uh goral Palmer is their opinion that an Army Corps of Engineers permit is required for the stream Crossing and I did point out in my notes as well as Communications I believe with the applicant that the board the applicant has the option of getting a letter of determination from Army Corps or any of the other reviewers because again the peer reviewers that's his opinion based on his experience if

this applicant has different experience and they've gone for five projects and never got an Army Corps permit for this then he can get a deter written determination from that agency under the ordinance stating that that their permit is not required so I thought that was probably the most critical aspect time wise of the of the application review by the by then I just wanted to bring it up tonight I'll be meeting with uh with the peer reviewing engineer tomorrow going over everything and trying to just make sure he's on the same page with the ordinance again this is the first time uh the town has ever had a peer review done of the engineering so we want to make sure that it's done right and he may modify some of his comments based on my input and then we will provide that within a matter of days to the applicant and they can review those and decide how they want to respond to them so hopefully by

next month's meeting if you determine that it's incomplete then they would have the opportunity to work everything out with the applicant as well as excuse me the peer reviewer the final two things I'll point out are the performance guarantee I did indicate what the ordinance says you have to have for a performance guarantee and the applicants have responded in one of those emails if not in their supplement that they are proposing a cash deposit which meets the requirements of the ordinance um and secondly I did raise and I have not had a response about the bylaws and I did alert the applicant that they have submitted a set of bylaws and that meets the completeness but I did want to give them the heads up that the ordinance specifies that the bylaws that they propose have to follow the town attorney yes Town attorney's template which is intended to make sure that the main that the improvements are maintained and that

the town has enforcement Authority in the event that they're not maintained if the applicant wants to propose a different bylaws which they feel addresses the concerns intended by by the attorney's template they can submit an alternative and that has to be reviewed by the attorney at the applicant's expense so just I to me those are kind of the main issues that are at stake on at this level of the at this stage of the application

afternoon so like I said I haven't even had a time to thoroughly review it and we'll be meeting with him tomorrow to to look at it um any general concerns with the engineering stormwater definitely it sounds like a permit is needed but like anything they had a list okay

clarification George is you two choices uh complete or not complete but on the draft incomplete application you list I guess 10 things yeah so you as you were as you were discussing in some things in fact may be complete at this point yeah and I would suggest again giving the applicant an opportunity to respond to what's been presented and uh they they in your deliberation on the completeness letter or incomplete letter you can make any modifications to the draft that you feel appropriate and we'll we'll probably both help you with that so you're gonna the applicant's gonna address street name or he knows that the street name was approved okay yeah as long as somebody talks to me about it okay yeah all right then I guess any comments before we begin from the board Mr mister's applicants

supplemental application parts that were dealt with there I think are the excuse me have we seen that yeah I believe so yeah there's like the main historic preservation commission uh oh I did okay that was part of that yep I think the big items that are outstanding right now is we're still waiting for the D.O.T permit that Culvert that failed I think caused them a little chance of priorities yeah they they asked for our storm water plan and they sent that off to their engineer to review it and so they're digging into that sounds like uh my my oh my my understanding was always that if an Army Corps permits only necessary if you impact of navigable water which that stream's clearly not navigable I've have seen situations where they will track an applicable water through a culvert and they will but that's more like a Vernal pool impact situation that I'd seen in Yarmouth um otherwise I'd yeah I've never had to

put Army Corps apartment in for a minor stream Crossing um so I'll I'll dig into that and make sure that that eyes Dot and T is crossed um again agency letter not required that'll that'll put that to bed if if that's true but generally just my my experience and understanding is that they regulate Wetlands under the navigable Waters because they affect navigable Waters and I think it's the same thing for stream Crossings years ago yeah and the uh the EPA and John

held me with this if I'm not accurate but basically EPA uh delegated or congress delegated to the Army Corps of Engineers EPA promulgated the Wetland rules and these types of rules Army Corps of Engineers regulates it from the federal standpoint but then they delegate to the States including main dep certain authorities up to certain levels and in the past I remember or 25 years ago that dep did do all the stream Crossings but apparently in more recent years Army Corps has said no we want to see all the stream Crossings but again it's under not that you're going to take a boat down that stream but that stream feeds into streams and into the river that that sure that's how that's how they stretch their jurisdiction

navigable Waters so we've been talking about it I'm sorry to interrupt you but can I just bring this out because it's kind of relief we've been talking about the Army Corps what about the DP the DP I'd submit so the way nerpa permits by rules work is typically it's like you submit it and if you don't hear anything back in two weeks it's approved and so that's how the stream Crossing permit went and I'm gonna have to submit another one that sounds like they want one for just impacting over an acre just when you disturb an acre um so I'll put in another nerpa for that and I'll have that in two weeks the peer reviewer has given specific guidance on addressing those issues does he say a permit fired from gives a an indication that what the parameters are for their review and suggests that the applicant provide calculations to verify their position okay so what he's I don't think it does is not adequate he wants to see

calculations that say how much impervious how much disturbing that's what that email is about how much developed area on this site on permits we we don't know if either dep is going to require one or the core is going to require one it's not been satisfactorily concluded whether it was okay okay so we don't have that information you do not have the agency sign-offs we're still waiting for mhpc unless we got that already they did they did submit that in their supplement and can I ask them sorry the Wetland nation that you had done they covered vernal pools in the and he found no vernal pools okay thank you okay Charlie go ahead you were talking about permits what else on here I think that's about it um

aquifer District I think satisfied that I think the other sign off is from the fire chief something that was the pond I believe has been sized appropriately and I haven't heard any comments back from that but now we're talking about the submissions of this stuff here I mean what we're here to do tonight is determine if you submitted everything you required to not whether the pawns the right size or any of that other stuff so yeah so I think I think I came in tonight knowing that we we are incomplete on the grounds of just the dep and the DOT permit alone and I think I was just waiting here if there's anything else

okay okay do we have any thing here okay is there anything else you all want to say okay any so I think we're missing for incompleteness a determination on the stream Crossing either by either dep and or the Corps of Engineers those are whether that's one thing or two things a B and C are are correct in the draft letter of incomplete uh d e d and e have been submitted uh f is still outstanding and G and H are addressed by the applicant supplement okay I'm sorry what was that f is the Assessor's map and lot number on this on this recording plot the subdivision part yeah you had it on all the butters you didn't have on the subject parcel and it should be in the title block so that people can see automatically where this subdivision is

should be is it incomplete uh or complete and then a vote on that so it would seem it seemed to me that we're incomplete correct okay I agree and we need to we need to but is there anything else while they're here that on this not so much substantive review but is there anything else that we saw that we want to

no no nothing else I'm I'm talk about timeline here like I think we should give everyone enough time to review everything that's come in today so that when we meet next we can be ready everyone can be ready so I wonder if December will give you enough time to know how these permits come back right you need to buy farmy core says they want to approve this then who knows yeah and then all of the comments back from Goro Palmer regarding your engineers that's stormwater stuff and I've gone back and forth with them in other projects okay so so I guess December yeah it'll at least be an opportunity to nail down as much of this as possible yeah okay so I think the the question before us now is we're under this 30-day gun as well as is a motion at either complete or incomplete and a vote on that so can I actually ask another uh process question if we go forward and we push this to December can we extend it again or can we keep us

extending this or once you determine completeness you start the clock of the review 60 days from that point this will only extend your clock right for the incomplete that's right yep now let me also point out that procedurally um if if it boils down to this project is all good to go except for the Army Corps permit you could Grant a conditional approval if you felt comfortable with that if you don't feel comfortable with it you don't have to uh but if that was the only thing that was holding up the project they could get their approval work on you know everything else they got to do get all the legal documents recorded and everything else and then once they get the Army Corps permit actually they couldn't record the plan because without that they wouldn't you know the project people couldn't go forward in Reliance upon it so what I'm saying is there is some flexibility here to work with the

applicant uh on these issues and it depends how big they are maybe the Army Corps is just like you can't do this without that we need to know because they could require a whole redesign of the stream Crossing can you say again real quick about

with everything okay proposal from his standpoint the fire chief and that would come up in a substantive review piece of it so the question today is um there are things that we do we think there are things missing in George's I'm going back we think that it's incomplete because we don't have a although sdp yep Crossing we don't have B on the crossing we don't have C on the Crossing on the entrance excuse me on the ranches thank you and then we don't have F which is the Assessor's map so those four things so would we need a com a motion saying that we find it incomplete for a lack of uh section you know those those letters right there if someone would make a motion with those four things that motion that it is incomplete based on those four things that John just listen Okay and then if I could get a second please second it has been moved and seconded any further discussion

it as incomplete please raise your hand 4-0 so we'll work hard to get everything we need guys and we'll see you back in uh you've got it in December boom yeah and work with George if there's you know if you need to meet with clarification or whatever on it so yep please all right thanks guys thank you

right is that the first uh oh nope sorry December 7th is the first Wednesday December 7th it is by the way those I guess it's the next time the next topic then is is we have a survey that George has been working on um and I think it's what we discussed at the uh information meeting and where we are on this George did you want to do that where we are on it is we have this draft survey that I would like to get your blessing approval vote on um I've shown it to the Selectmen they've not told me to stop so uh although they did ask me who wrote it and I said well uh I don't know I think it was George no but I said we had we had been working on it and a couple of those obviously had been at the informational meeting so if we can vote on uh accepting that uh survey as what we want to go forward with and then the plan if everybody agrees going forward after that is to uh they're not planning to vote to uh do

surveys at the election so the town Selectmen aren't doing anything I don't think Conservation Commission is working on it so on their survey George has been helping them with that historical commission is I think uh they're working on it they met this evening and if you're not doing anything on December 6th at 6 30 the Conservation Commission is going to hold their informational meeting like we did so you're welcome to go to that so um if you're comfortable with the and vote Yes on the survey that we've done on on affordable housing uh I'll George and I are we'll put something together we'll announce it coming soon at the uh at the election have just a little flyer there that says keep your eyes open for this we'll take it to the Selectmen One Last Time on the 8th uh but then in Devin has already worked uh said he was start putting it on the web so it'll be a Microsoft forms uh survey uh that kind

of does the tabulation for us so my only con sorry go ahead um is getting it's like I have very rarely ever checked the unless I know there's something relevant to me on the Durham um blast like getting people to actually take a look like some sort of flyer or reminder or some way to actually distribute the information well and that's part of the intent that's a good point so there that is the uh part of the uh election day so it'll be there we'll ask the ladies to say Hey you know when you're when you're done voting go look the sample survey will be will be up there with the here's where it'll be on the Durham blast or the the Durham website or whatever to try and there'll be like a hard something for someone to physically take uh I'll ask I don't know if they were like if they'll pay for them you got to tabulate it if you're physically going to do it I have the same concern as how how are we educating the townspeople

this is out there and get that feedback well it would other than I I don't know that we're going to be I don't think we're are we going to be sending out a little postcard to all the residents I don't think we are not intended to do I don't yeah and I don't think the expense is going to be there so really it is going to be get it on the Durham blast get it out on the the web page if it gets on the Durban Durham blast then there's two or three people that'll put it on the all things Durham which the face which is not again not everybody but I'm hoping that enough people will walk by it at the election to say that it is in fact you know it this is going to be the survey keep your eyes open for it uh and you can read about it can we get it posted at uh get and go it always seems to be a place that people visit and I'm willing to take that on I'm willing to take the you know that same kind of tape

into the window there next to the raffle tickets or whatever it may be yes I think that's a good idea it's just getting the exposure to Residents who don't have and some people say well I don't have any I don't have the internet so it doesn't really cover that issue though it does not cover them it's not going to be paper it's just going to be a sign that says go to this website but at least right at least they could be aware of it well I don't have no you're going to go to my neighbor and at least I can answer more awareness but it is like

not sure we could get the money to print particularly in color yeah thousand of them well I don't think we want to and I don't think and I don't it seems to me there's an awful lot of people who do there will be somebody who doesn't and I guess what we could you

know say you know some of the little a little my 93 year old mother would take the survey so I shouldn't say a little old lady but uh somebody may come so I don't have a computer but I want to weigh in on this come on over to my house yeah come on over or walk you through it you can we'll have a couple of surveys there that they could Circle or you know we won't make that as the primary but if they come up to the clerk and say I'd really like to do this maybe we just have her take their name and we can figure that out there is no we think that we want

people that commit Mark in here can we have a station I just have them printed here on the yeah but we've got to do it electronically that would actually vote to actually vote on it so if somebody wanted to come in oh I said so it's not until we got a computer station here come over here you can sit down and you can take the survey hey Devin can I borrow you for a second I don't know I that's not a bad idea I like it it's just like I feel like it's becoming a lot of impossibility why not just so there's only five questions right yep it won't um but just would just I don't know where the event listen I've been following yeah we've been talking about thank you to get access to someone who does not have internet at their home if they're coming into the town office on a regular if they're coming in and they want to do the survey we can print them Case by case so we don't print

I don't have a computer the first thought would be does your son your daughter your mother you know your 90 or three year old mother-in-law will she let you borrow her computer okay and if not then we can satisfies it and you know if we missed 20 people I mean one we've educated them before the town meeting there's still a public hearing where they they get that chance I mean I want to try to get it out there as you're all I remember we've worked very hard to get it out there and get people's input to it so the other question I have is if we the survey has been done and we get a majority that leans one way or the other is the board going to support that majority and it comes up to us yeah I mean our toolbox right yeah that's my thought I mean if we if we could come in I've looked at it and I've said wow I could go this way oh I could go this way too yeah and I think that's that you know that's part of it is there's if there's

one one option that's you know in our Collective Minds when that's dumb but the other two are there and 85 percent of the Town says we want option one two or three that can be used we can we can as a group say that's what we want George to write the article an amendment to say is option two I am not an expert statistician thank God and it's probably good because what you'll find with expert statisticians who do citizen surveys is they will have a survey and they will say this is within 97th percentile of of reliability plus or minus four percent you know that kind of stuff and it's misleading it is because you know it's it's uh it's never totally representative and it's never totally unbiased you know some people won't do the survey because whatever reason so it's not that scientific even if it is a very scientific survey so the way I approach this and have for the last 40 years in this realm is to say look this

is going to be a survey with the comprehensive plan you had 400 people which is fairly substantial do the do the online survey for a population of four thousand and what you look for is is there a clear leaning that it's going so we've got three options here uh responding to the state initiative requirement on affordable housing the town can either be less restrictive because the comprehensive plan indicates that this is what the town wants to see happen and you can be less restrictive than you currently are and less restrictive than the state even says you have to be so that's one option in order to promote more housing opportunities for Durham residents the second option is to say no you know there's just too much growth in town it's it's you know and I'm not suggesting this is legitimate in terms of the real impacts versus the perceived impacts but the perceived impact is whenever you have houses built that's

going to raise taxes uh that is a perception that affects how people vote and then also people think the town's growing too fast and the rural care characters being lost that's their perception uh and that's their that's what they value and so and many people have both people want their kids to be able to live here when they get out of school but at the same time they don't want to lose the town's character so a lot of times they're and that's where you get those I I could go either way on this so what you what you want to look for is like if 80 percent are saying be less restrictive or if 80 percent are being as re be as

restrictive as you can in the law that's a that's what you can take and really put some some you know support say look that's the the handwriting on the wall when you get to town meeting that's what you're going to be facing either either in favor of it or whatever you propose so you can kind of gauge what do you want to present at town meeting but if if it's all over the place if you have as many people on one side as many people on the other then you just have to make the call what do you think is best for the town and put that before the voters and get it voted up or down but I think it's important to note that all we would make do is make a recommendation right who would then say guy's done a great job we like it we'll write the article that way or you know know that it's not you know what we see as the way to go with uh with Durham as the elected official so and what communities with this article

after we talk or do we go to the select board and they write the article well practically speaking for ordinance stuff I write the article for them it's just generic language do you do you favor doing this you know responding to the state initiative in this way um and it can be put on as separate warrant articles to give the voters like they did with marijuana give the voters several options and whichever passes that's what we do yeah that I got the selection did not want to do that yeah what I'm saying is Well here's the recommended option well the impression I don't know I kind of like that idea we can talk more about it once we get results but you know if we this survey we don't get a good representation or B it is kind of close then why not have multiple questions well let's wait until the survey comes right because I'm not saying like I wouldn't throw that out right now like I you know yeah I'm just saying it's an

option it's an option yeah there's no and we're spending time talking about selectman and today I said I may just say you know suck it up and give us one or we'll put it up for two votes I mean what are the challenges if two votes is you know wait I voted for that I want to go back and re-vote on one of them and do it yeah I mean I think we get the word out people are gonna if we get 400 people to respond to the survey we'll there will still be 50 people come to the town meeting and say hey what the hell are you talking about it's the first I've ever heard about afford a while but you're always going to get that yeah what if we have some printed copies I know we can't collect them during the election but what if we have printed copies the select board to hand out yeah they they discussed that on because there were some issues they want to survey on and my understanding talking to the town manager and the town

clerk is that it's going to be chaos and they don't want to have that interfering with the voting and I mean I'm thinking enough to say you know something hanging on a they got enough to worry about or something like that in the school thing that says coming soon watch for this it'll be on the daily blast I'll be on the website and work with the Jill and

Heather to get it on the all things Durham and and I'm happy to put that's a good idea about putting it on the get and go door and uh tell them they give them Devin's phone number call Devin he'll let you come over and use his computer all right what are you thinking about schedule for the survey like well what I discussed with John is next Tuesday night when we go to the select board say look if you approve it tonight you can we can report to the select board that this survey is ready to roll and get their endorsement to put it on the town's website and have it up for okay so here's the thought John was suggesting you know just have a limited time but my suggestion is keep it open until you have your public hearing at least in January well a public hearing has to be on the article oh yeah yeah for sure I mean we'd have to pull we had to close the survey in time or you could just gauge what you

have at the time I mean I would think by our January meeting you know people get my concern is people get through the holidays and then they'll be all of a sudden somebody will take interest in it and all of a sudden there'll be a flare-up of additional interest that you wouldn't count if you close the survey I know but you could so we're going to vote on it all right we're going to we are going to come up with a recommendation for an article and then the survey is still open that doesn't that I mean based on

uh and then you go to the public hearing and you say look here's the input that we've gotten so I'm suggesting you may want to keep it open until the public hearing at least so that people have their opportunity to weigh in because that's the other issue it's not just the we based it on all the it's that you give maximum opportunity so nobody can say I didn't have a chance you you didn't consult me the more you say you had your opportunity look we kept the survey going we had public hearing yeah we may not agree to disagree today but I mean if we the plan is if we approve it tonight Devin said he would have it all set to go selectman blessman he turns the switch so it's yeah and you can discuss one you want to cut it yeah the other thing is it's sort of probably on the 8th at the election it'll still say draft on it so that you know that it's maybe words that this is this is not yet final but this is so people can

start looking at it and then the 9th or 10th whatever it's like online it'll say draft yeah I think what John is pointing out is if the if you do a display at the at the election that'll be on the same day as the select boards meeting to get their their blessing so and it won't be you know yeah but it won't be online yet yeah no but when if if it's like if we say yes the selectman you know says good idea then we tell Devin Devin then turns the switch on the ninth and that is live he's going to be preparing it in the meantime I appreciate George has done a great job of getting us here and I know he's got some other ones going so can I just ask a quick question about something else you mentioned the Conservation Commission is having a resource Protection hearing or or meeting when is that sixth of December 6 30. Eureka thank you are you on the Conservation Commission no she's retired everybody's retired

um oh yeah she's still here she stopped caring about bugs and trees um yeah so before we endure there was oh the other thing is the roads I think that that's down to two things one is a statement that says can only can only be accepted by the town of the town meeting and then the other one is we'll clean up the language that takes maintenance agreements out of our hands and gives it to the road commissioner and coded for it yeah just to give you all an update we've had staff discussions about that because the code officer and the road commissioner and the town Newtown manager we're concerned with the the current language in the ordinance is really really it's very confusing and it makes it very difficult for the staff to administer who's responsible what are the standards uh and we had planned back in June before the state uh affordable housing stuff hit us in in full we had planned to try to clarify

and reduce the road with but you know as you recall the now the road width issue is thrown up in the air because if the state does requires you to do more housing you know we're going to limit it to 16 feet or allow 16 feet so what we discussed and decided was look if we could just straighten out the administrative problems this round and just put off the table all the standards you know whether these roads have to be paved or not whether you can do a 16 foot gravel driveway for one house or not let's just say look do we want to do two things in this we want to make it clear what you have to do because right now it's confusing and number two reduce the bureaucracy so that somebody doesn't have to go to the code officer and then go to the road commissioner and then go to the planning board just make it one process by one entity have a staff approval and just reduce the bureaucracy we don't think you need to do a survey

on that or have a have more informational meetings it's pretty simple and that'd just be a big help and then so that's the start of it yeah and then once the state we figure out what's going to happen with affordable housing and how that would impact back Lots uh and we've we want to change some of the language to make it clear how you measure these things because it's very confusing

so December we'll probably talk about it we'll have some survey feedback back sometime in January uh January our January meeting will bless the article uh you know based or well give George guidance on on how to draft the article to take the you know which which option is the one that's preferred uh and at the same time there's the other two uh housing and historical excuse me conservation and historical are doing the same kind of thinking we have to hold the public hearing for all four articles right so we'll work that schedule off maybe in December January February so probably early early February first weekend in April asked me is the meaning and then I think maybe the second like the week after your February planning board meeting so like that next week to have the hearing hopefully it won't be Valentine's Day I was gonna say also don't forget there's a big break in there student break yeah I mean we

probably just need to start skit with whatever's ready have a meeting like a knockout R2 and then because I think it could be controversial I mean it could be long meetings any of the three historicals or maybe short I don't I don't know but uh you know people have had their survey but uh we'll go so do we need a vote on survey yeah if you would if you would vote to approve the draft that would be great if I could move the ball forward I'll make a motion to approach sorry sorry yeah yeah

um I feel like informationally I have no problems but the this is gonna maybe sound silly but the graphic design concerns me a little bit because I find it like hard to follow a little bit and I don't know if that's something that we could address when it goes on the web or is this the form that would appear on the web that's what I put together and frankly it's just very hard to illustrate in terms of some of the concepts and trying to fit everything onto one page you know okay so yeah that's part of it they're hard to read because they're very small but I didn't want to have a survey and on the on the web we might be able to have larger Graphics but again problem is you go page to page to page and then you lose track of of that stuff will that be Devin Devin yeah is there any way to and we could what we can do is I talked to Devin about this is put it on but not have it go live let us all look at it and see

how it works before you put it live and then vote so they make sure the voting yeah do a test run you could all do it to to do your votes without telling anybody else how you're voting so he's going to start working on it here the next day or two before so that's really good well those are good comments and if you got an idea on how to uh my partner's a graphic designer so good she makes me see things that I don't want to see I will suggest that that test run as a condition of approval [Laughter] so we we I need a new motion that includes his test run as a condition of approval do I have a motion I'll second that I'll make the motion Juliet seconds it in all in favor raise a hand okay we now vote to adjourn all in favor raise the hand Devin we are adjourned